Deconstructing: Widmore vs Ben
In picture: A very appropriate for this blog black and white contrast shot of Ben (taken from the scene where he confronts Widmore in 4x09)
Thanks to CTS for the 5x07 ep review - next week I've decided I'm back on the payroll for 5x08, which I have no idea about, so here's hoping it's a good one... It'll be nice to do an episode blog again though, having been on Lostpedia sabbatical since 5x05. Now, to the present blog, and we're kicking it up a notch with another deconstruction - which if you don't know is basically where we theorise and ATTEMPT to make some good fact/episode links - giving us an edge on general speculation theories. This week saw less in the way of sickness or electromagnetism (see previous posts), but interestingly more in the way of easter eggs, tis the season I guess. It was nice to see though, considering I don't think there's been many trivia things this Season so far... I mean yes there was Ulysses, but nothing as deep as an obscure TIME magazine copy, etc.
Anyway, enough intro rambling, time to go all binary oppositiony with the assessment of Benjamin Linus and Charles Widmore. I think clearly this episode, albeit uber-choppy (though that's kinda relaxing in a strange viewing way where you get answers), was all about those two men. Which of them is good, which of them is evil - in a non false dichotomy I don't even know what false dichotomy means kind of way. But regardless, this has been something that has been building since Season 4 - is Ben the one who is protecting the Island from the evil Widmore, or is Widmore trying to stop Ben's tyranny? Let's travel back to Season 4 where this opposition truly started.
In a nutshell, Captain Gault argued that Ben and his folk staged the wreckage of Oceanic Flight 815 at the bottom of the ocean. He chillingly commented how someone could find over 300 bodies for such a staged wreckage. However, flash through a couple of episodes, and the opposite is being said - Charles Widmore staged the plane wreckage. Believing Ben's story also has the advantage that Tom had some documental proof it was Widmore, including images of the burial site in... Cambodia (?) where Widmore got the bodies for the wreck. This issue has still yet to be fully solved... though it seems more plausible that it was actually Widmore, considering it's Gault's word versus documental evidence (unless you want to argue the documents' verisimilitude and all that). But still, this doesn't necessarily answer our question - Widmore could have staged the wreckage, and yeah got a load of dead bodies which is royally unseemly, to protect the Island. So, in that sense, is Widmore necessarily the big bad - or is Ben just playing his games?
Moving on to Season 5 and majorly glossing over the whole "I'm gonna kill your daughter thing" (don't wanna get even more sidetracked than usual, sorry), we have this new mystery - why did Ben banish Charles Widmore from the Island? We saw young Widmore, a fully-fledged Other with his people - wonder how far his lineage on the Island goes... This was at a time before Ben arrived, and Widmore leads us to believe that not only was he the Island's leader, but when Ben joined up he tricked Charles into leaving (by turning the wheel? Doubtful considering Ben had to blast open the bunny door to get to that room). Kicking someone else to get power does seem to fit the Linus profile, and manipulating people is kind of Ben's angsty past ridden raison d'etre.
But then again, we have our reasons for believing Ben too. Despite the fact that you can never trust a word he says, should evidently never turn your back to him, and apparently that he has a homocidal trigger command with the words "Eloise Hawking" - he did rightly call the Freighter team for what they really were. If Widmore was a good guy, yeah a mercernary team would be needed to take on Ben's crew... but a) he gave them orders to torch the Island, and b) he told them to kill everyone, which surely would include "his people" as he openly admits to Locke. Consequently, I seem to find myself siding with Ben in an acquiescey kind of way... wow I present a solid conclusion in this post!
Is Widmore telling the truth, and is he in fact a good thing for the Island and the survivors? Is it all just relative? Even if he does "want the Island for himself" like Ben always says - does Widmore necessarily want to do bad things. Sometimes a new leader, whether elected or not, doesn't do incredibly evil deeds on the people (though we can argue morality til Svetlana comes home). I think the main thing we should take away from this is the following: while everyone seems so quick to black and white the Ben vs Widmore issue on the basis of who is pure good and who is pure bad, maybe there are some very deep shades of grey between them. Let us know your thoughts - who do you side with and why?
P.S. Thought I should mention how Alan Dale (who plays Charles Widmore, whom this blog is kinda centered on) has major dissed Lost fans in the past for being too geeky and reading too much into the show... meh... *insert rude snappy comeback about his acting ability here*
26 comments:
You don't know what false dichotomy is? People keep asking which of these two people is the good guy. The question presupposes that either of them has to be a good guy. Why can't they both be bad? Do all bad guys have to be on the very same bad guy team? You seem to even allude to this in the end, but not entirely. Why should the audience "side" with either of them? Can't they just be two self men out to get the same thing through any evil means? The question in my mind (if anything) is which of them is worse? And we simply don't know enough about Widmore yet to properly determine that. And we'll probably learn a little more about Ben that may tip things as well.
while i agree that the best tv show writers keep from painting their characters in a stark black and white, (you mentioned "shades of gray"), in one of the earliest episodes, we see locke and walt playing a game of backgammon (white and black pieces) locke talks of good and evil. Walt shows up in this episode...again - but once again providing no connection to the overall storyline besides the continued friendship between locke and walt. I'm inclined to believe that ben and widmore are both "black" and walt and locke are "white" in the "game" that will eventually unfold - with walt as the final leader of the "others".
I don't see how people can see Locke as a good guy. He may mean well generally, but he's the poster boy of faith based negligence on the show. If things keep going as they are, he's brought everyone back to the island to die, fulfilling a meaningless nihilistic time loop. Um, thanks? If Locke was unwilling to trust the rather abusive island teleology, then the loop couldn't have happened in the first place necessitating that it be fulfilled.
Who is Locke to decide who has "had enough" like he says of Walt? Especially in this episode you see so much of the grief and torment he willingly puts people through for the sake of his own existential vanity. There's a reason that no one trust Locke and everyone trusts Jack. Jack may have his issues, but they seem to involve helping other people with honest healthy (not to mention sane) goals much more often than not. Locke is "gray" at the very very very least.
as a huge Locke fan, I loved last night's epiosde, but I'm starting to think that man is lacking too much in the self-esteem department to be a 'good' leader. Locke has been somewhat of quitter all his life and this isn't the first time he has tried to take his life when his chips were down. Granted, life has been a bitch to him but as opposed to what Ben has gone through and how he constantly gets himself out of messed up situations, Locke just seems to 'settle' in life.
War on Error - lol I like that I actually got the meaning through the post unintentionally
And apologies for the grey thing - but in case you haven't noticed... I'M BRITISH!!!! I occasionally write in British spelling without realiZing lol - cut me a bit of slack being a foreigner and all that :)
"Doubtful considering Ben had to blast open the bunny door to get to that room" Not neccasarily, if Charles turned the wheel at the time of the well.
Anonymous - If it was Ben who made Charles leave (assuming he hasn't time traveled) - then it would have happened during or after the time of DHARMA. As the well was filled up when Ben was a kid I presume... it'd mean he did it through the bunny wall and all that
Locke said at one point in the episode to Jack (I think) that going back to the island was coming from him, not from Ben. I think Locke thinks he is not being manipulated, but perhaps he is more manipulated than anyone else.
As for Widmore, in the last episode when he was a young man, he was an a-1 class prick! I can't believe that he became the leader, and if he was, what kind of leader would he have been? One that got exiled by Ben because he was an a-1 class prick maybe?
I think one of the more interesting things about Lost is the writers' unwillingness to reveal who is "good" and who is "bad." I agree that it's possible that both Ben and Widmore are bad. What was interesting was that before this past episode, it was possible to imagine that Ben just might be good. But the last episode swung the good pendulum far towards Widmore's side.
I think the writers will continue to swing that pendulum back and forth. They did this with the survivors vs. the others, and I think they might do it with Locke and Jack. The good/evil (black/white) theme has been going on for quite some time in the show, both visually (the black and white stones, the backgammon set, Charlie's shoes, Aaron's stuffed animal... on and on it goes) and with the characters.
I hope the writers can keep us guessing until the very end. It makes our perception of the characters more interesting.
Israel - Locke and the other people seem to revert to their old vices and faults when they are off the island. Jack becomes a drunk, Sayid a killer, etc.
On the island Locke has all the self esteem.
As for the original article. I tend to think that both Ben and Widmore are bad as well, but I can't help but wonder if their initials aren't on purpose. B and W.... black and white.
Just and observation.
I'm in total agreement with anyone else who is sick and tired of all the discussion about who is "good" and who is "bad" dichotomy. Yes, there is a tremendous amount of black/white symbolism in this show, but that does not mean that the writers want to make the characters black and white. We have seen in the character development NOTHING to suggest that anyone is purely good or purely bad! Every single character who has been examined in this show has demonstrated both questionable actions and redeeming actions. That to me says that the writers do not value the childish "good guys versus bad guys" storyline. Both Ben and Charles have conducted atrocities, leading most of you to feel that whoever has the most "pure" of intentions must be good, and somehow in their actions or storyline demonstrated some kind of redeeming quality. Personally, I dont care which one is 'good' or 'bad', or which one is 'worse' for that matter. Worse with respect to what? I agree that they are just two men with equally selfish motives and who, like everyone else, have both light and darkness within them. Now lets stop oversimplifying it to a fairytale and ask relevant questions.
Both Widmore and Ben want Locke to do the same thing: convince the others to go back to the Island. They both have been watching the other survivors to "keep them safe" (presumably from the other). Yet the minute Locke mentions Eloise Hawking, Ben decides Locke's survival suddenly isn't necessary, nay that he needs to be killed. Does Ben fear that Locke's access to Eloise will somehow bring Charles closer to her, and to the Island? Or, once again, does Locke's knowledge of Eloise indicate to Ben that Locke has been given some Island insight, and is thus a threat to Ben's control of things? Both times that Christian Shepherd spoke to Locke 'on behalf of Jacob', Ben is presumed irrelevant or otherwise wrong. It seems that neither Ben nor Widmore are individuals that the Island seems to value, that Locke is indeed somehow 'special' to the Island, and that they want to wield him to accomplish their own agendas.
They're both bad guys. They were both, at one point, useful to the Island as "leaders". When the island was done with them they missed their importance, their "destiny" so they want to return (or respond to the rejection by destroying it!) Remember Widmore's attitude when Alpert trusted the complete stranger and Alpert just shook him off in front of everyone.
However, the island is constant, and people's fate's are constant. That's Ben's second time killing off Locke but the island wasn't done with Locke yet.
Someone up the line here mentioned that Ben's reversal on helping Locke, then killing him, came on the heels of Locke mentioning Eloise. I am not sure about that. I saw a distinct attitude-change when Locke mentioned that Jin was alive. It seems to me that Ben felt he needed Locke in order to convince the others to go back. However, I believe Ben found his "opportunity" to convince at least one of them himself (Sun), as evidenced with the wedding ring. That would be his foot in the door to possibly getting them all back. Ben also knows that it doesn't matter whether Locke is alive or dead when he returns. That he returns is all that matters. Maybe he even knows Locke would be alright again upon his arrival back at the island. Who knows? None of us do, yet, for sure! LOL
- Bill
See, I liked Ulysses being in the last episode. The whole novel revolves around a father/son relationship between two men who are not in fact related by blood. One of them is a teacher obsesses with rationality, while the other is older, and more accepting of his body and its determinancy. this is so relevant to Jack/Locke I want to spit.
I believe Widmore simply wants to go back to the island and take it for himself. He's used to getting what he wants (commands a large corporation) and uses that mantra to try to seize the island.
However, as in all things in Lost, if the island doesn't want you back, you won't come back.
I believe Linas is tied to the Island through a theory I read today that makes sense in a Lost way:
He is always making decisions to keep the island from those who would seek it, take it, or destory it. He uses the smoke monster, Cerebus, to protect it when needed.
Cerebus is Hades' loyal watchdog, guarding the underworld, and keeping those who belong there (the dead) in place.
With the lack of hesitation Linas exhibits when doing horrible things, one could say he is the island's ultimate word on who stays and who goes. His power to do this has been exhibited time and time again, through his connection to Jacob and his commanding of Cerebus.
Locke's newfound power on the island is the only hitch in this theory to me. If he can command Cerebus as well, my theory goes up in smoke ;P
My idea is:
Widmore = evil
Linus = evil but not as evil as widmore
Alpert = good
I believe Ben truly wants to help Locke get back to the island. Ben told jack that DEAD Locke had to go back to the island. Ben must have known that the island would bring him back to life, so what would be the point in killing him. Or why didn't he just let John kill himself? He needed to know how to get back himself. Once Locke told him he had to go to Mrs. Hawking Ben killed him, not to get rid of him but because Ben knew that Locke had to die to save the island. Alpert told john he had to die. Based on the idea that i think Richard is a good guy, I have to say Widmore is evil because Widmore told John that he would not let him die. Maybe im waaay off but that what i think.
Dave Donaldson - It hadn't occurred to me that Locke is still susceptible to slipping back into his "old vices and faults" like the other losties. I'm starting to agree with you on that. What took me aback was how severe it is for him ...and comparing it to how the other O6 have been faring it fits with their own new level of personal 'suck' [for lack of a better term :)], is striking.
I think what set me off is that Locke can't help using the Island as an emotional crutch. He used his dad, Helen, and maybe even phone-sex-operator 'Helen' as crutches and it just seems to rob him of his potential. I'm not gonna 'give up' on him nor the fellow losties that are in introspective turmoil, hopefully they can overcome them and not repeat the worst parts of their nature.
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I think Widmore's comment of Locke and himself [paraphrasing here]'being sent into exile' by Ben, is nifty. That Widmore would choose to phrase it as exile is interesting. . .
I agree that it doesn't matter who is "good" or "bad", although conjecture about the morality of ben and widmore is inevitable. I think focusing on this aspect of the show leaves out tons of other details.
So here are my burning questions....if Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Jin are in the island 70s, then where did Sayid go? Sayid's "keeper" Ilena, shows up in the episode along with Caesar (in the present time, some have thought), but no Sayid. Also, this episode mentioned that the pilot and a woman took one of the boats, along with the passenger lists, and left without telling anyone. We know the pilot, but who was the woman?
And, this occurred to me when Widmore was talking to John in the hospital bed about how John appeared to Widmore on the island when Widmore was just a teenager....perhaps Widmore went to all of the trouble to get these certain people on the island because they appeared to him as a kid? Once he was exiled from the island by Ben, maybe he searched for all of them and developed this plan to get them all back? So some of the people in the plane "returning" to the island was like a self-fulfilling prophecy? Because Widmore had seen them as a kid, he made them "return", then when some of them left (on the boat), it made the others appear in the past....it's like a cyclical thing, because they appeared in the past, it caused them to get stuck on the island...i don't know my head is starting to hurt. Tell me what you think about the little details of this episode!
Question: When did Ben promise to kill Penny in season 4? can someone explain the background on that????
It is John's innate self-doubt and need to feel 'special' that makes him such an easy target for Widmore and Ben's power struggle. Maybe his only purpose or destiny is as a pawn?? Maybe that's the only reason he was brought to the island in the first place?
But then that is a horrible, cynical answer that completely ignores all the wonderful mystical hints at John's higher purpose! As a big John fan I have to believe he's more meaningful than this!
Anonymous, I don't remember the exact words, but in 4x09 Ben confronted Widmore and said something to the effect of; "You killed my daughter and now I'm going to kill yours."
Instead of trying to find out what the writers/producer are trying to say, I think we should let "Lost" tell you its meaning.
I think if you look into a mirror and ask yourself what you personally go through in a crisis should reflect a lot of things in "Lost".
Personal experience when I face a crisis is in the following sequence:
(1) Shocked (Crash on the Island)
(2) Realizing I am Lost
(3) Ego (symbolic:Ben) blaming the world (symbolic:Widmore) for my misfortune
(4) Trying to ignore the problem by doing a lot of thing in my daily life (example, Jack)
(5) Realizing that a problem is not from the external world but myself (for not willing to accept what had happened and come to peace with it)
(6) Life goes on.
SO ARE YOU OBSESSED WITH LOST BECAUSE YOU ARE LOST IN YOUR OWN WORLD? The question lies within yourself but your Ben Linus might be telling you that you are not, hahahaha
i don't think the question is on who is good or bad, but instead, who is in line with the island's will. both are claiming to have the support of jacob, which is from what we can understand, the authority.
i think ben has to have it on some level because he saw jacob's cabin several times. if he got to that point unjustly, then jacob couldn't have appeared to him. although, i think he started to lose it towards the ends b/c jacob's refusal to appear to him.
Well I think they're either the same person or related to each other.
When Ben visits Widmore and they say they know can't kill each other, that's probably because their existence depends on the other one.
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