
Before we get into the meat and potatoes of this episode, I just thought I'd point out the funniest part of the episode to me: the death of Eyebrows (rarely known as Phil). He had been a thorn in the Losties' side for far too long, and it was great to see him get speared through the chest with a magnetically-driven pole. Farewell, Clippy/Eyebrows/Phil. We knew you too well.
And that's not the half of this wonderful episode, which was two full hours worth of action, emotion, and Jacob, Jacob, Jacob. I was quite surprised to see Jacob's heavy role in the lives of the survivors, but pleasantly so. I'm interested to discover the importance of these events, some of which left me wondering why exactly Jacob was even there (i.e. Locke's fall -- Why did Jacob need to be there?).
And then we have the elusive Jacob's enemy, a new character and perhaps the big villain of the show from here on out, who just happens to be masquerading as our favorite bald hunter. The character is ruthless and interesting, and could perhaps be the show's only clear-cut antagonist (along with Keamy, of course). We didn't even get the name of this baddie, but I'm sure we can all come up with some great nicknames to call him (much like the nickname Fenry, Flocke comes to mind). But that makes me wonder -- is this new enemy the smoke monster incarnate? He possesses the monster's ability to animate (or copy) dead people. Was he manipulating Christian's body? Was he using Yemi as a puppet for Eko? Has he been there all along, and we just didn't know it was him? This seems to make more sense, considering the black and white garb of Jacob and his enemy. Maybe Jacob is the bright light that Locke saw in season one?
Speaking of dead people, who else was sad to see Sayid get shot? Of course, Roger did have some vindication, but in that moment I really wanted Jack to shoot Roger (even though I knew it wasn't going to happen. Because we already saw Roger die in the DHARMA bus! Whatever happened, happened, right?
Wrong! Juliet made that perfectly clear in the final moments of the episode, in one of the most amazing scenes ever played on television. Juliet, having been sucked down the shaft and grievously (probably mortally) wounded, slammed a rock into Jughead's core and set it off, leaving the screen to fade to white ominously.
What happened? Will probably be the most debated question over the break. Will the Losties reset themselves, and land in LA? If so, how can the show go on for another year? How can the show follow up such a wonderful ending? The questions are numerous, but I think one thing is for certain: we'll see Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, Hurley, Jin, and Sayid all next year.
Other things I liked about the episode: the reveal of the statue in its full prime (though we still did not get to see its front). The statue is of Taweret, the Egyptian goddess of fertility. And living under her is...Jacob. Therefore, the answer to the question "What lies in the shadow of the statue," is Jacob, or, as Richard put it in Latin, "He who will protect us."
Also great: We finally saw why Pierre Chang had a prosthetic arm -- it was crushed in the Incident. Miles' cry of "Dad!" was also great, showing that Miles is finally getting his father figure, even if it is thirty years too late.
We also seemed to get the answer to whom Ilana and Bram work for: Jacob. Jacob visited Ilana after a horrible accident which left her severely bandaged in a hospital, and recruited her to work for him. The question that's left now is, how did she know him before? She said she was happy to see him...was he her lover? Ancestor? What?
I know that I've left quite a lot out of this review, but we've got a long break ahead of us to discuss every little detail. So stick with the Lostpedia blog through the hiatus for the latest deconstructions and examinations of "The Incident, Parts 1 & 2."
Yeah, Lost has this great ability to answer questions by and still leaving you "Lost."
ReplyDeleteI think the only thing that disappointed me as far as writing was character motivations. So they all wanted the bomb because romance didn't work out? Sure its bad, but ...whatever happened to just getting drunk?
This is regarding Jacob being there for Locke's fall. It might just be me.. but I thought when Locke fell he died and Jacob was there because he had to bring him back to life.
ReplyDeleteWrong! Juliet made that perfectly clear in the final moments of the episode, in one of the most amazing scenes ever played on television. Juliet, having been sucked down the shaft and grievously (probably mortally) wounded, slammed a rock into Jughead's core and set it off, leaving the screen to fade to white ominously.I'm not going to say it won't turn out to have changed some things, but I will say that I think you are being extremely presumptuous to say that Juliet hitting the bomb proves that "Whatever happened, happened" is not the actual paradigm of time travel on LOST. I don't think the episode indicates one way or the other, in the slightest, what the actual meaning/effect of Juliet hitting the bomb was.
ReplyDeletei also thought locke died from his fall and Jacob revived him.
ReplyDeletei didn't know that was the goddess of fertility!! whatever happened to her, or just her statue, has to have something to do with why babies conceived on the island die.
Yeah it seemed pretty clear that Jacob had brought Locke back to life after his fall. We obviously know Jacob can do that (he said to have brought Juliet's sister back to life, along with Little Ben). Unless you were being sarcastic, I hope you caught that moment.
ReplyDeleteAnd Juliet setting off the bomb really left us not knowing if "What Happened Happened". It was just another cliff hanger. If anything it showed us the opposite, and like Miles said, The Hydrogen bomb WAS the incident.
Either way, everyone should rewatch the first scene of tonight's finale. Listen to Jacob's line in which he says something to the fact, "There is one end, and the rest in between is just progress"
Wonderful ending? I'll give you wonderful episode...incredible episode...maybe the best ever. With the exception of that ending. I was very disappointed that there was not 2 or 3 more minutes of some sort of cryptic...something. To fade to white felt like a typical everyday show's cliffhanger.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't expecting everything to be answered. We've gotten a lot to chew on over the next 8 or 9 months. We also got some resolutions. It was a fantastic episode. But I can't help but feel let down by that ending. I was expecting a mind blowing "it was a flash forward" type ending that totally changed how we watched LOST. This was just a regular old used-by-every-show-in-the-book cliffhanger, nothing more. They didn't need to keep us hanging...we and they were coming back, regardless.
I loved the Juliet twist at the very end, I just would have liked some sort of post white flash scene that gave us questions or blew our minds. The only thing my mind did was think that a typical cliffhanger ending for a 8 or 9 month hiatus is just wrong.
Now, don't hate on me, I'm a hard core--follow all the blogs and investigate all the literary references--type fan who is entitled to her opinion. Just wondering if anyone else feels the same way.
"Not only had a five-year constant suddenly become a variable"
ReplyDeletecan you explain what you meant by that? im little confused....
Hey way to review so quickly! I like everything you said but I disagree that the statue is taweret. Taweret has the head of a hippo. That statue looked like it had the head of a crocodile. that could indicate Set who was the evil brother/enemy of Osiris imo
ReplyDeletethe one thing that stood out to me, and made me laugh, was, when the losties rolled into the swan in the bus shooting guns. did anyone else out there get a flashback of "back to the future"??? was this a sendup to the original, or just a coincidence?
ReplyDeletehas anyone translated what richard said lies in the shadow of the statue? or what was written at the top of his tapestry (or what the picture on it represents)???
Wait doesnt Taweret have the Croc head?
ReplyDeleteand Taweret means, "One who is great"
I thought the episode was very good. However, we are still left with unanswered and new questions. Juliet set off the bomb but do the survivors really end up in LA and all is well?
ReplyDeleteYou can't make up a year of episodes about that. I think the survivors are still on the island...I'm kind of thinking they either stay on the island, get off the island and none of what happened happened or they all die...or maybe they all die and just the chosen one(s) live? like Locke? Richard?
I also want to know why the stations are named DHARMA... in Buddhism it means (something along the lines) of becoming enlightended to something in one's life. Do the survivors need to become enlightened before knowing anything about the island or their own destiny?
Is Set the same god as Sobek? Sobek is also associated with fertility. . .
ReplyDelete"Not only had a five-year constant suddenly become a variable"
ReplyDeletedo you mean the people on the island?
can anybody help me with this please?
To go along with my previous comment, it was finally nice to meet Jacob. It was interesting to see that he waited for all of his 'chosen' people to go to the island. He touched all of the people he met that are now on the island...I think Jacob chose and wanted them to be there on the island for some reason unknown. But know Jacob is dead...
ReplyDeletegreat finale; and i cant wait for darlton's comic-con appearance, not to mention next season's premiere episode. again to reiterate everyone else's take, it looks pretty apparent that Jacob revived Locke after his fall. Anyhoo, that whole conundrum of post-mortem Locke being our 'baddie' incarnate leaves me wondering what exactly was behind pre-death Locke's 'visions'/apparition appearances etc. And to piggy-back on that question, how much of the other smokey apparitions and cabin apperances were this 'evil' force's doing? I trust darlton will use the 17 or so hours left of next season to at least give us an idea of what the hell has been up these past 5 years...
ReplyDelete"Not only had a five-year constant suddenly become a variable"
ReplyDeleteat the end of every episode it fades to black with the lost words in white. Now it was a fade to white with lost in black letters
I had a feeling that Jacob and "Jacob's enemy" at the beginning was the beginning of some epic rivalry before he even said "Do you know how much I want to kill you" I mean, this really was a phenomenal finale, but I agree with most of the comments above!! Is anyone still wondering who was on the Black Rock? I can't wait to see what happens next. Thanks for posting the review so quickly!
ReplyDeleteWeakest attack ever= Ben Stabbing Jacob
ReplyDeleteI felt the whole episode was rushed feeling.
I liked Sawyer and Juliet's end. It had some soul.
Also, Jacob physically touched all of the Characters who went back to the island. Kind of significant.
ReplyDelete@Zubin, I think our reviewer Sam was mentioning the LOST end title card change from white-on-black to black-on-white, as the thing that was our 5-tear 'constant' that became a subject to the 'variable'.
ReplyDeleteI for one cant wait to see how that will be carried over to Season 6; I would hope (and would think) some actual, serious thought went into that change. That nuke did something drastic(?) or maybe it was the Incident we are familiar with.
It's going to be Claire. She is the character that will tie all of this together. Also, I think Desmond and Penny's baby is a forgotten but important person.
ReplyDeleteCharlie?? Are we to solely believe Desmond was naming his son after a friend and that is it?? With all the time travel, I think that kid is either going to end up actually BEING Drive Shaft Charlie, or maybe even Charles Witmore.
The kid could be on a plane and end up in 1977
We don't know if Whitmore is Penny's biological father
Think about it
I think in order to fully understand what the deal with Jacob is you need to look closely at that book he was reading before John Locke came tumbling out of the window,Flannery O'Connor's collection of short stories called Everything that Rises Must Converge. Now I am not sure if the writers meant to equate Jacob with - the author, her philosophy or her work, but any one of these is strikingly meaningful. O'Connor was a deeply religious (Roman Catholic) woman who was diagnosed with lupus and died at the age of 39. She wrote most of her stuff after she got her death sentence and much of it is very bleak and violent, I have heard it called grotesque. A lot of the story endings have strange twists or bizarre death and seem to be very disconnected with any sort of afterlife. On the contrary, they seem rather existential and dark. There are always two sides to any argument, though, and you could argue that her stories are imbued with faith and her characters reach reach a state of grace in the end.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, not to wax completely philosophical, I am not sure how much the Lost writers took any of this into consideration, but they must've picked that book for a reason...
Richard said 'He who always will save us' lies in the shadow of the statue.
ReplyDeleteIf setting off the bomb changes everything, it seems like everything that has been happening will be for nothing. Jacob will not even have been killed. I think Miles might have been right - the bomb is the incident.
It was a couple of episodes ago (I'm sad to say I cant remember which one) but Sun showed Richard a picure of everyone working for the dharma stations...she said she was looking for her husband and if she knew the people in the picture (Jack, kate, miles and so on). He said yes, he knew them but they were dead and he saw them die.
ReplyDeleteThat gave me a thought after tonight's episode. If the bomb went off and they all did die how do we know if Richard saw it? But then in many episodes past when Ben shot Locke after showing him a pit of dead dharma people, could it be that all of the survivors are, in fact, dead in that pit? or wait...maybe it was just the dead people Ben killed, which included his dad...but he obviously didn't do at all yet because his dad is still alive on the island. Ben's dad did after all try to kill Jack and Sayid with the bomb tied to his back.
Just a thought...
I'm posting here because I don't want to create an account on the forum.
ReplyDeleteAnybody else notice the Greek text on the cloth that Jacob was weaving in the very beginning?
Google the phrase "θεοί τόσα δοίεν, όσα φρεσί σήσι μεμοινάς"
(in all caps it would read "ΘΕΟΙ ΤΟΣΑ ΔΟΙΕΝ, ΟΣΑ ΦΡΕΣΙ ΣΗΣΙ ΜΕΜΟΙΝΑΣ")
Apparently it translates roughly as "May the gods give you what your heart wants," or "the gods give you what your heart wants."
Have fun.
-Andy in VA
You don't pay attention. We now know how they all died, except for Sun. We know that the hydrogen bomb going off caused the damaged to the rest of the staute in which Jacob lives.
ReplyDeleteWe've seen the foot before. Now we need to figure out if it was whole...or part..
Adding to your thoughts: Is the smoke monster in the forest the new charter in Black with Jacob? Did he find loop holes threw the dead? When Ben sees the smoke in the temple, Lock is not there. But Ben sees his dead daughter in the temple and she tells him to do what ever Lock says. After, Lock comes back. He tell Ben to kill Jacob. Smoke Monster has been in a lot of the dead to tell the main characters what to do. Jacks Father, Charley, and so forth. And when Jacob says their coming, is this a foreshadowing of the main characters who will save the day for Jacob and prove he was right?
ReplyDeletethank you Israel and Ryan :)
ReplyDeleteWow, a very Jacob-centric episode, very weird to have so much of him after all this time only in references. And to use an unknown actor to play him, too ... wasn't that the Black Rock ship headed towards the island in the opening scene ? ... the child-Kate was a real ringer for adult-Kate wasn't she, nice casting ... not sure I like that Jacob distracted Sayid leading to his wife's death ... and everyone finally got the where's Bernard and Rose answer, and ha, they didn't want to be found. Rose's comment was great: "It's always something with you people." ... Juliet changed her mind in a significant way TWICE in this episode and it was maddening, guess it was fitting that she got sucked into the hole in the end, but her whole I love you stuff at her end was so cliche ... was really upset to see Jacob come to such a quick end like that, but it was in fact a literal killing and not a figurative or metaphorical one as many had posited.
ReplyDeleteTwo end notes: (1) don't be so sure the bomb 'sploaded, we're lead to think that but all's we really saw was a cheap fade to white, and (2) the previews for next season showed "2010" so I don't think you should look for a Fall '09 start to the final season, especially since it's only a short 17 ep season.
This season ends with the opening scene of season one episode 1. Nothing changed. It's what happens after Jacob is killed. Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Julie, Hurley, etc are all dead now.
ReplyDeleteIt now becomes a question if Sun can go back in time or if Locke will come back to life.
We'eve seen Jacob's home (the foot before)
Correction this season ends with the opening scene of season one episode 0. Don't foget about the eye showing as the screen faded to white. Nothing changed. It's what happens after Jacob is killed. Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Julie, Hurley, etc are all dead now.
ReplyDeleteIt now becomes a question if Sun can go back in time or if Locke will come back to life.
We'eve seen Jacob's home (the foot before).
Wed May 13, 10:38:00 PM PDT
It was another Steve King night.
ReplyDeleteSmoke monster may or may not be the same as the man from the beginning, but I would lean toward yes. Unless he really was imprisoned in that cabin by the ash at one time. There is some confusion there.
The being/person/smoke is obviously against people coming to the island, which would explain why the monster has been going around "judging" people.
As the man is now impersonating Locke, it would explain the smoke monster's ability to impersonate people.
Also, at the beginning, Jacob wore white. The other man wore black.
"The man in black"
Another clear Steven King reference, this one from The Dark Tower and the "new" Locke is surely Randall Flagg.
"They are coming." Jacob obviously knew, as apparantly everybody else, that "a war is coming." He knew a loophole would be found so he assembled his 7 samurai warriors, in this case the Oceanic 6, 7 or however many. In The Stand, Mother Abigail played a similar function.
Who knows what or if Richard actually saw any of them die or not. I don't think that part of the story hasn't been shown yet. I think they will be sent back to 2007. As Jacob said, "They are coming."
Jacob lived in the cabin until the ring of ashes around the house was broken. Ashes to keep out bad spirits or Smokey. Jacob flees to the foot of the fertility god.
ReplyDeleteSide note: fertility god destroyed = no babies live on island
Hi ---
ReplyDeleteI have been following you for quite a while, and love all your takes on the episodes, but I'm pretty sure you might be wrong about who the statue is of... we did see the face from 3/4 quarters in the finale, which revealed a mouthful of teeth, this led me to believe it may be Sobek instead http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sobek.htm the crocodile god. What do you think?
I have to agree that the fade to white changed things with Juliet getting the bomb to explode, as the energy pocket had already been released causing "the incident" of magnetic storms which later took down 815 as well as symbolizing how Desmond had been previously teleported to safety. Of course this raises other questions and paradoxes, but i do think that a seasons worth of episodes can still occur through flashbacks with a finale, or premiere for that matter, where 815 never crashes and this alternate reality only exists in the minds of those touched by Jacob.
ReplyDeleteCould it be that Jacob brings people to the island to find peace and harmony but is constantly dissapointed that they end up fighting once they get to the island? That's where i think this is going. Jacob wants people to find what Rose and Bernard have found but the other guy doesn't believe it can happen, thus he doesn't want anyone to come to the island.
ReplyDeleteokay i haven't read ALL of the posts so i don't know if this was said.. but i think that jacob is some sort of a guardian angel, and the directors were saying that all of the lost characters in the last season are going to be connected somehow, and that connection is why jacob is all of their guardian angels.... he lives in the shadow of the statue "he who saves us" which would be a guardian angel, and he was involved with all of the people we know in the past, like with jack, kate, sawyer, locke, etc so i'm sure we'll see much much more have to do with that next season
ReplyDeleteawesome finale though, i had the chills the whole time and while we were discussing it after!!
and also, any ideas on what frank lapidus is a candidate for???
ReplyDeleteloved the episode, turns out that maybe all this has even been are two demi-gods? playing a big game of chess, will the people fight and sin or live in peace? of course sin wins everytime, yet jacob keeps bringing people to the island to hopefully be proven right thus representing, dare i say it a Christ like figure, and the other man representing the devil.
ReplyDeleteI think a clue as to what will happen next year is the flash on the eyeball at the end of the promo - I think that's Jack waking up in the forest on the island again.
ReplyDeletecan someone please tell me what is up with claire?? i keep hearing about her but is she completely written off the show or do you think she will show up in the last season in 2010?
ReplyDeleteElizabeth...He is a good guy..Here is a quote from John Locke in the pilot epidsode....
ReplyDelete"Bagammon. is the oldest
game in the world. Archolegist
foodn sets when the excuated
mesphotamia. ......Two
players two sides one is light
one is dark.....Walt, do you
want to know a secret?"
Other Anonymous..The flash represents..how Lost started..it's the same opening in the Pilot epidsode....
ReplyDeleteAnyone feel like that fight between Jack and Sawyer was long overdue? Haha
ReplyDeleteI loved how Sun found Charlie's ring. It's sad Claire never found it.
ReplyDeleteWow! That episode was amazing.
ReplyDeleteI will have a lot more to comment on later, but for now I'm putting in my two cents that it wasn't just a "fade out to white." I had to rewind it a couple of times but it seems that they purposely paused longer than usual at the end, presumably to give emphasis to the fact that the bomb actually went off.
ReplyDeletePlus I don't think they'd want to p.iss us all off like that after 9 months of waiting next season. :)
I think littlebirdsings is right. The statue is that of sobek. The statue's head appears to be that of a crocodile, and he is holding an ankh in his right hand. If you look up sobek on wikipedia, it makes sense.
ReplyDeleteI really think that the statue is Sobek (crocodile), not Taweret (hippo). Someone mentioned Set, but Set's a mystery mammal, a bit like an anteater-dog... guy... thing.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I submit the nickname "Johnster"--a portmanteux of "John" and "Monster"--for the Locke doppleganger.
Now... the whole Widmore/Linus rivalry seems like not much of a big deal anymore.
Sobek, from Wikipedia: As a creator god, he was occasionally linked with the sun god Ra
ReplyDeleteRa? as in Richard Apert!? Heh, okay that wasn't my original idea, they threw that theory out there on TVGuide as I was patiently waiting for the finale.
However -- here are some of my thoughts:
Perhaps the Guy in Black was the one kept in the cabin surrounded by black powder. Question is -- who broke it? Is the smokemonster on the black side? Is he the disease and reanimates all the dead people and just wants to kill whoever comes to the island?
I think most people have been thinking what Miles said, pointing out the obvious since Faraday brought up the idea -- what they were about to do created the incident. I don't think there are any variables. It was sort of a crazy sideline ride we went through before the finale...
I think when Juliet set the bomb off -- as she has always done -- it causes all of them: Juliet, Miles, Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, Jin all to return present with Ben, Sun the Beachies. Just in time to go to war with notLocke and the Others.... I'm making an assumption that the Others have some kind of ancient rules they follow -- including Alpert -- and with Jacob dead the GiB embodied as Locke assumes the reigns over the island.
One more thing, though, looking at pictures of "Sobek", the headpiece is different than the island's statue.
ReplyDeleteI like the mention of Juliet being the goddess of fertility. it makes sense. Set is the new antagonist... because Set is the god of storms which also explains why he would be the smoke monster and the ultimate evil of the island... Osiris is the just and righteous god of the undead and takes people to fertile land of Duat but only if they been good. IN this sense Jacob would be Osiris b/c he chooses who goes to the island.. he choose the oceanic survivors to go there and kills of those that dont belong.
ReplyDeleteo god what an ep.....wanted more answers than what was given though sorry if i repeat an other comment
ReplyDeletethe guy at the begining talking to Jacob in the black shirt is Locke at the end but how.....we know this as he says at the begining i will kill you and find a looppole and when Locke and Ben go into the statue Jacob says to Locke , "So you found a loopole." i want to know y he wanted to kill Jacob what did he do??
i cant wait a year to find out....
When Locke died, he saw Jack's father, who encouraged him to turn the time-wheel. And as we can remember, at the first plane crash in the first season's we saw that the plane carried the dead body of Jack's father. So, maybe this new enemy can incarnate in the dead body of a dead body that travels over the island? And maybe the black smoke is the force that can do that?
ReplyDeleteI know I am going totally against everyone's idea...but I really don't think Juliet exploded the bomb at all. If it didn't go off from that long drop down the shaft, hitting it with a rock just anywhere on it wouldn't work either. We saw the same white light that always signals a time jump. Sayid was dying..he probably didn't set it right.
ReplyDeleteWhacking it and cussing it gave the energy pocket time to go off just like it was meant to all along. If what she did worked, why was everyone still around walking to the statue in the future? Why did the DI finally end with Ben killing them with the gas? Why even show us those scenes?
What happened happened again, but this time Jacob is stabbed. No one has died and come back. The new Locke is just a version of the Smoke Monster like all the others. Dead is dead.
Opening scene was so great with the two black/white watching yet another group of people (Black Rock?) come to the Island to be used to try to stop the Loop. This time the loophole was found just like Jacob said. The remark of "you would really love to kill me" came true. Of course if jacob is a god he can't die.
Didn't the weaving of the tapestry remind any of you of Penelope weaving and weaving to keep off the wrong suitors til her husband could return?
And didn't Jacob mention the string being hard to finish to someone? Reminded me of the Fates in mythology that chose which and when to snip a string to end someone's life.
I must watch this one several times to catch all the dialogue and such.
This was one fine episode. And now I am a believer in Adam and Eve being Rose and Bernard. A bomb blast would have totally wiped the Island off the map and there wouldn't have been anyone to go in a cave to die unless it was radiation sickness that killed them.
Just some fun thoughts...
ReplyDeleteDouble Time Loop Theory:
The Losties successfully neutralized the energy pocket with the bomb. Thus preventing flight 815 from crashing. Thus preventing the Losties from traveling back in Time to prevent the incident. Thus making 815 crash, causing them to go back in time and preventing the incident. Thus causing 815 not to crash .... and so on.
-----------------------------------
This 2xloop is possible because of the loopholes. One is caused by the enemy of Jacob as we know it, and the other one will be shown to us in the next season.
...actually I have no idea what caused the loophole. And I don't know whether the enemy of Jacob needed the loophole to get to him, or whether a loophole is needed to kill Jacob(assuming he is all present in every moment of time). Loved the finale, made my brain go batshit.
Awesome finale! I cant wait for the next season! Great blog too btw.
ReplyDeleteThis is regarding the bomb being the cause / setting off the incident (of the electromagnetic energy being released). When Jack threw the bomb in intially, nothing actually happened, the bomb dint go off so it dint cause anything. The incident was set off by the drill as it was meant to. The magnetic energy was released attracting metal items even though the bomb dint explode (obviously as Juliet was frantically trying to detonate it later). In that case, what was supposed to have happened did happen.
Also is it possible that Juliet is
the variable here? She is the possible reason that change could even take place. Coz we know that Juliet is not one of the people who survived the oceanic 815 crash. She was part of the others. Yet she time travelled with the survivors. How come? None of the others did so. If Juliet had not been with the survivors (Sawyer, Kate etc in 1977) then the bomb would have only fell into the hole but not been detonated and nothing would have changed. The incident would have taken place anyway and all of them would still be on the island. So if any change were to take place now it is because of her. I think maybe she wasnt meant to be there and therefore she is the variable.
Also she is not one of the 8 people Jacob met and touched - if that makes any difference.
So I wonder if there is any significance in the fact that Jacob specifically met and touched 8 people and Juliet pounded the bomb 8 times?
I think the statue is Sobek…
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek
I'm a little confused here, from what I gather this isn't the indecent that bring flight 815 crashing to the island. This just leads to them making the button that has to be pushed every 108 minutes. Then one day Desmond forgets and that's what causes them to crash. I agree that stopping this will eventually stop that but this isn't the exact indecent that causes the crash. Am I right or wrong...
ReplyDeleteI know this a naive statment, but do you think Jacob and the other buy are acuatlly demi-gods, fighting over the existence of the island. Their opening conversation makes it sound like people have been fighting over the island for centuries, and the battles are games the two demi-gods like to see play out.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry I meant to say that I disagreed that the bomb was what set off the Incident in 1977.
ReplyDeleteThe Incident = the electromagnetic energy being released - was due to the drilling and was what Daniel Faraday was trying to change/avoid from happening.
I believe it more likely the statue is a depiction of Ammit (Emmet), the "Eater of the Dead", than of Teweret. Teweret is depoicted as having a hippopotamuses head and a human (five-toed) body. Ammit is depicted as having a crocodile's head and a hippopotamus's legs. Hippos are four-toed like thge statue and the statue's head seemed to me to be a depiction of a crocodile.
ReplyDeleteThe 1977 incident caused the Swan to be completed and for DI to keep people in there pushing the button. What caused the 815 was Desmond following the guy to see what the hell he was doing..after he noticed there was a tear in the hazmat suit. After killing him and seeing his boat he was late getting back to the Swan and didn't quite get the numbers in at the right tme. That caused a smallish discharge which is what brought down 815. Again later he panicked and got to the fail safe key and stopped the big one again. That is the one Penny's watchers picked up on.
ReplyDeleteThis is the sequence that I remember. 1977 was the really big one with the total discharge happening. I really don't think Juliet detonated that bomb. Remember she has been wearing a red shirt for the last few episodes and we have been waiting for how she would die.
The incident changed some things such as bringing 815 down in 2004 and set the stage for the war that Charles told Ben about. Next season will be that war with everyone back in place in 2007.
Out main dudes black and white still have their scenes to work out.
We still don't know just who is the bad guy is do we? Is it the black one or was it Jacob?
One other question. Do we know what the loophole is that allows Jacob to be killed?
ReplyDeleteWe can think of both Juliet and Sayid as the variables. Sayid probably didn't set the bomb right. Just because he knew explosives doesn't mean he knew jack about nuclear devices. Those things (even the 1954 have to be set off with a sequence of events sorta electrically...he may have dinked with the wiring, but to make it explode would have required something like dynamite? plastique stuff? the lost just took his word that he could "fix" it since they think of him as the do it man. He didn't attach anything to that device. Actually that isn't the part that blows up anyway if I remember correctly..its just the detonator device. The bomb itself is carrying the nasty stuff that really makes the big boom by a chain reaction set off by the detonator.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone here knows about how and whatever sets off a nuclear device let us know. I just can't remember how its done.
What if the person who looked like Jacob and touched all the Losties, was really the bad guy from the beginnig of the episode? By touching them and bringing them to the island, he was building his army?
ReplyDeleteThe Opening scene reminds of the Biblical story found in the book of Job. It had a very "cosmic bet" sort of feel to it. Jacob wearing white, paralleling God. His enemy wearing black, paralleling Lucifer. Lucifer is trying to get Job (the losties? Jack?, Locke?) to turn his back on God. Ben's tirade towards Jacob had a very "how could a good God let bad things happen to good people?" feel.
ReplyDeleteLoved seeing Vincent, Rose and Bernard. That was the sweet moment to calm the intense scenes don't ya'll think? Kinda a bone thrown to us by the writers.
ReplyDeleteAlso, we have thought all season that the search was on for the others perhaps on the copter right? What James set in motion was really a search for the other losties last seen on the beach during the fire arrow attack. And Rose/Bernard didn't want to be found. James also had the search going to hopefully find Locke who promised he would come back for them.
The DI losties thought everyone else with the exception of Jin died in the boat explosion. Jin they could reason was just blown clear. We don't know if he told them about being in 1988 and meeting Daniele do we? I mean surely they talked about what all happened from the time they last saw him.
The one thing that bugs me about the show is how no one is shown sharing their experiences. Surely they talked about what happened to them over the years no?
Hey guys, one quick theory;
ReplyDeleteThe "loophole" is not as mysterious as you guys are making it out to be. The loophole was that Smokey/Fake Locke/Esau got Ben to get him into Jacob's inner sanctum. Think carefully about what Richard said before they went inside; he told them that only the leader could go in, and that there was only one leader on the island at a time...which was true. Locke was dead; therefore Ben was still the leader. The loophole was Smokey/Fake Locke/Esau tricking Ben into getting him in (perhaps Jacob also can only be killed by a leader, which is why Ben had to do it).
if the bomb going off was the incident then how would everything be the same...
ReplyDeleteExample we know Radzinsky ends up in the swan pushing the button with Kelvin, until he left his brain on the ceiling.
Wouldn't the bomb going off have killed him too?
only other options i can think of are if he is able to escape the blast or there is some sort of time shift
How interesting. Not only are the writers incorporating Science and Physics but they are also including Theology. I sure hope they know how they plan to mesh these together in the final season. The wheel and time travel could have nothing to do with Jacob and Esau. I would love to read others opinions on this.
ReplyDeleteWhen Jacob says they are coming I believe he is referencing the end of days and that God is now displeased and is opening the seven seals which will mean the 4 Horseman of the Apocalypse are on their way. And Richard talking in Latin? Hmmm. The show seems to have suddenly turned toward a religous undertone. Just an observance. Please tell me your thoughts.
In the Bible and Torah, Jacob has a twin brother, Esau....the two are to have an epic battle, "End of Days,"...Jacob's Ladder...any thoughts on all of this?
ReplyDeleteWho, arrrrrreee you?
ReplyDeleteIt is so obvious jacob had to be there when locke fell so he could bring him back to life. godddddd
If this ending/conclusion is saying that the island is a sort of purgatory/place to judge mankind for their actions, then what is the need for all the time travel stuff? That makes no sense to me. The 2 just do not go together. What are your thoughts?
ReplyDeleteIn relation to Sayid rigging the bomb- maybe he didn't do anything at all? Or maybe he made it so it wouldn't go off... Of maybe he just couldn't do anything with it at all. He did say something to the extent that nothing could save him now. Also, my friend suggested that Rose and Bernard might be the Adam and Eve from season one. I believe someone suggests this on the theories page.
ReplyDeleteI was a little disappointed when, after years of speculating who or what Jacob is, he turns out to be the carpet pee-er from "The Big Lebowski."
ReplyDeleteI'm now thinking that the losties who got out of the island were actually NOT supposed to return, given that Esau (as Locke) told Richard to tell Locke that he had to get the losties back to the island and that he would have to die in order to accomplish that. And I think Esau was off island and used Locke's body to get there.
ReplyDeleteDo you guys think there might be a connection between Esau and Widmore?
ReplyDeleteno esau and ben seem more connected
ReplyDeleteOK, I have a small theory on the guitar and Jacob. What if Jacob is actually the God Apollo? Hear me out. Search Dharma on Wiki and read how many times Apollo is referenced. Also The Bow and Arrow are symbols of Apollo as well as the Caduceus staff and lyre. Remember what Jacob gave Hurley? Jacob healing people? Jack being a doctor? The book that Jacob was reading before he saved Locke's life. Too many coincidences to list. What are your thoughts
ReplyDelete"Sobek, from Wikipedia: As a creator god, he was occasionally linked with the sun god Ra
ReplyDeleteRa? as in Richard Apert!? Heh, okay that wasn't my original idea, they threw that theory out there on TVGuide as I was patiently waiting for the finale."
...Now THIS is interesting! I've subscribed to the Apollo theory for awhile now, so this is encouraging! Apollo lived on an island and was pulled around by swans (the swan is where the button was that dictated time travel). Hurley ate Apollo bars at the swan, Boone offered Shannon one, and Jacob handed Jack one from the oh-so-testy vending machine on last night's finale. It was the only food dropped off not labeled with the B&W Dharma logo. Sun (Jin's wife) was the first to point out the statue. Hmmm...Also, from Lostpedia: "The Swan is not the only reference: the Statue seems to date to the Greco-Roman times, just around the time of Apollo. Also, on the island of Delos, I believe no child was allowed to be born there once Apollo had been born there. Artemis was later brought there, but only Apollo was actually born on Delos." Also, awhile back the creators said that viewers are always looking down for answers, when they need to look up. Well, in Greek Mythology, Apollo took pity on musician-king Cygnus and cast him up into the sky, where he became the constellation 'Cygnus the Swan.' There are six constellations of Apollo
1. Cygnus = swan
2. Sagitta = arrow
3. Corvus = crow
4. Crater = goblet
5. Ophiuchus = serpent handler
6. Orion = the hunter
Thoughts? Comments?
Also, I'm just waiting for Aaron to appear mysteriously. I think he'll play a big role before all is said and done.
Finally, what the HECK are these mini-commercials that mysteriously and fleetingly air right before LOST is about to come back on after break...I didn't even notice them for the longest time! Last night Penny was in it, and a flash of the word 'mosaic' showed up followed by 'what did you see?' and fade to black...strange.
-W
P.S. I must say I was disappointed in "Jacob." They should have picked a better, more mysterious actor...He's just too...Vanilla. And the stabbing of Jacob...Ben, you're better than that!
i'm kind of glad to (hopefully) see juliet go!
ReplyDeleteI think you all presume too much about Juliet setting off the bomb. The "flash" at the end of the episode was similar to all other flashes on the island, including when Desmond destroyed the hatch. It may be that the flash represented the original incident -- some sort of electromagnetic event.
ReplyDeleteOk I have my theory...
ReplyDeleteThe whole show of Lost represents the biblical story of Jacob and Esau. They were twin brothers. Esau was the older one. Esau was the hunter (smoke monster/island/random guy from beginning of episdoe) and Jacob mainly "confined himself in tents." Jacob tricked their dad, Isaac, who favored Esau, into giving Jacob his blessing. When this happened, Esau was forced to obey Jacob even though Esau was the first-born. Jacob also had 12 sons, and the youngest one was named Benjamin. Benjamin's mother, Rachel, died at childbirth (just like Ben's mom). Later in Benjamin's life, most of his tribe was killed and those who survived "could no longer proliferate" (just like Dharma). Back to Esau, after he was tricked, he swore to eventually kill Jacob, just like the guy in black said to Jacob in the beginning of the finale. There's way too many connections for this not be what Lost is based on. I suggest everyone to check it out and let me know if anyone agrees.
Vincent is apparently retired, too.
ReplyDeleteI wonder about the Jacob-Esau connection myself:
1. Esau was the first-born of twins Jacob and Esau. Later with the help of his mother, Jacob deceived Esau into giving up his birthright/inheritance. Makes me think of "Bad Twin."
2. If Jacob has not been in the cabin for a long time but someone else has been living there, I wonder if it was Esau who actually possessed Christian. I think from that we are meant to infer that everything "Jacob" (who was actually Esau or Black Shirt) told John Locke to do is actually deception. In other words, Esau has been using John Locke all along.
3. Was it really Jacob who was using Ben, or was it Esau? In the bible story, Benjamin is Jacob's son. Kind of an interesting thought to think Esau might use Jacob's own son against him. Esau/Black Shirt was almost certainly pretending to also be Ben's daughter in the temple scene - do whatever John Locke says, huh.
Anyway...just thoughts. FFTD.
Jacob is Apollo and the Island is Delos. Aaron is Apollo's loophole to being reborn bcause he was conceived off the island and born on the island with Apollo's soul.
ReplyDeleteLook out Locke, Jacob has his own loophole!!!
I have a question 'cause most of the posts seem to assume that the Jacob scenes are flash backs- what if they are flash forwards as Jacob has a second time round of these characters being born and growing up? Thus having a twist on the ability to change destinies as he seems to be some god-like figure.
ReplyDeleteAlso, there are not just Biblical god references here... Jacob has some Prometheus traits- bringing fire, or knowledge, to man to allow free will. Which incidentally the Devil, not God/Jesus, is the one always trying to convince man he does not have to follow the will of God.
Lastly, I've always thought that this show is running with Kant's free will or island: "For a will to be considered "free", we must understand it as capable of affecting causal power without being caused to do so. But the idea of lawless free will, that is, a will acting without any causal structure, is incomprehensible. Therefore, a free will must be acting under laws that it gives to itself." from Wikipedia: Categorical Imperative
(And to be honest, didn't think last night's show was great- I miss the confidence games the writers used to play with the audience in seasons 1/2)
I keep wondering if there is some significance to the fact that Juliet's flashback was the only one that did not include a visit from Jacob.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous says -- "In the Bible and Torah, Jacob has a twin brother, Esau....the two are to have an epic battle, "End of Days,"...Jacob's Ladder...any thoughts on all of this?"
ReplyDeleteI think this is spot on. I think it goes further with all the Egyptian hieroglyphs and references in the show. So Jacob and Esau also represent Horus (Anubis/Osris) and Set respectively.
http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/horus.htm
http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/set.htm
"Horus was also the patron of young men and the ideal of the dutiful son who grows up to become a just man." Doesn't that seem to speak to Jack, Locke, Sawyer, etc.?
"In many writings, he (sic Horus)is said to continue to battle Set daily to ensure the safety of the world."
Now on to Set -
"Set and Horus continue to battle for control of the world, setting up an epic conflict of good versus evil."
Set winds up killing Osiris father of Horus in the myths.
"There is an interesting parallel between Osiris, a fertility/agriculture god, and the Greek Persephone, an agriculture goddess. Both end up in the underworld through treachery and both are kept there by "legal loopholes" in the laws of the gods."
Legal loopholes? So Jacob/Horus asks Esau/Set about finding a loophole to take over control. This struggle continues each finding loopholes to regain control.
Thoughts?
I'm surprised that many people seem to think Jacob is the hero and his enemy/Smokey is evil. Like Frank says, I don't trust anyone who goes out of their way to say "I'm the good guy." And come on, white shirt = good guy, black shirt = bad guy? Since when did Lost *not* turn typical story conventions on their ear?
ReplyDeleteThe opening scene makes me think that Jacob likes to bring dangerous elements to the island to watch them play, while his nemesis works only to preserve the eden. If Guy In Black is (or is connected to) Smokey, judging people based on their destructive behavior, then I'd consider him the Good Guy. Jacob seems more like an agent of chaos, a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Does it not occur to you that Juliet exploding the hydro bomb actually IMPLODES the Swan...
ReplyDeleteJust like Desmond turned the Key...
I think Juliet Destroyed the Swan and now there is no more hatch... the fade to white.. just like desmond... maybe Juliet will travel thru time aswell.....
She aint dead yet.
So my thing is.. THE SWAN IS DESTROYED JUST LIKE IN 2004 Except 27 yrs Earlier.
The statue appears to me to be Sobek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek. Actually, this makes more sense, too.
ReplyDeleteWhat was the name that Iliana called Richard and why does she not have any scars left on her face after having all those bandages on her while in the hospital where Jacob visited her??? There is alot of answers needed here. I do not think the writers can sum all this up in one 17 episode season. They created new questions while still not answering most of the current one's. Like the time travel stuff, what does a god need with that, geez, hes a god! The magnetizm and physics, scientists, experiments, a nuke.... come on! There cannot be an answer for all of the above. They are making this up as they go. They can only pick one topic to come to a conclusion. What is it going to be, something like Hurley is crazy and he conjured all this up in his head while being by himself on a deserted island - THEN HE GETS RESCUED - The End!
ReplyDeleteI wonder if they will even be able to tell us how that Dharma got VW buses to the Island on a little sub?
ReplyDeleteI do not think they quite thought that one through either!!! LOL
ReplyDeleteDon't forget after Jacob stole Esau's birthright, which he also carelesly gave away, Esau vowed to kill Jacob. As a result, Jacob ran away. Also Jacob blessed all his children (as was custom at the time) by touching them. Jacob touched the Oceanic 6 and Locke (unknown whether he touched Aaron or not), but he didn't touch Juliet.
ReplyDeleteWhat does everyone think the deal was with the red herring Jacob ate at the beginning?
It's too bad Desmond didn't tell them what happens when you blow up that hatch. I really don't think they end up at LAX. They're still on the island.
how could jacob be the bad guy? in all of the flashbacks he was doing good for them... jacob is def not the bad guy here, nooo way
ReplyDeleteRemember that Richard relayed messages to the leader of the Others. Everything the leaders of the Others seemed to do was bad or evil. Wasn't Ben told to do all the bad things he did through Richard from Jacob, like stealing babies and killing people.
ReplyDelete>> "how could jacob be the bad guy? in all of the flashbacks he was doing good for them"
ReplyDeleteHe's a trickster, just like the devil. He's winning people over to his side and cause through supposed kindness, and will eventually have them unwittingly act out his nefarious plans, blindly thinking they're doing it for the sake of good. His mistake was in not treating Ben better than he had.
hey guys. my first time posting on this site, but wow, what an episode. i agree about juliet not actually detonating the bomb. the white flash was probably the big electromagnetic flash that will transport the oceanic 6 back to present time where they will fight the battle against dark side. remember, not everyone dies on the island as a result of "the incident." an atomic bomb would have consumed the island and everyone on it, but obviously richard, ben, and the rest of the others survive. that leads me to believe that the bomb doesn't actually go off.
ReplyDeleteoh and one more thing, don't you think that ben was the loophole? i don't think that the dark figure/locke is actually able to kill jacob, but my convincing locke to kill him, that's how he will get his vengance. sure locke kicked him into the fire, but the deed had already been done. the loophole is ben. i'm sure we'll find out next season how ben came to be the loophole. just a thought.
ReplyDeleteI've got it! Richard is really Ricardo Monte ban and this series is a prequel to Fantasy Island. And there is a plane but where is Tattoo????
ReplyDeleteHurley gets shrunk from the magnetism!!! LOL
ReplyDeleteWhat did Illyana call Richard when asking his name?
ReplyDeleteIm having trouble with the thought the bomb didn't go off.
ReplyDeleteWhy would the writers do all that trouble and effort in the story writing about "jughead" and eventually not use it? Especially in the final episode.
Maybe the bomb is the fail safe?
Also I'm pretty sure that the smoke monster can control the death and has alot of knowledge about people's thoughts and actions (even when they are death) so he can use this "all knowing judging power" to control the deaths in his advantage, thats why fake Lock looked so much like the real Lock.
Just my 2 cents.
Jacob is Apollo and touched the O Six to give each one of them one of his powers. They will use them to defeat the Demon God and Resurrect Jacob/Apollo.
ReplyDeleteYeah..how did they get all that equipment on the island? All the modern fixtures in the houses. Remember the airdrops of food? If they can math out the Island they can do airlifts of all that stuff don't you think? DI found it in the first place somewhere in the 60's didn't they? Between 1954 and 1974 when our losties arrive it looks like most everything is in place.
ReplyDeletei'm not so sure why everyone is so eager to jump on the Jacob bandwagon. Judging from the first scene with Jacob and his nemesis, Jacob was the one who caused the Black Rock to land there. Knowing that there would be "destruction" and "corruption" and pain, he still lead these people to crash on the Island. We saw him do the same in all the flashbacks, he essentially planted a seed that would one day grow into all of these people making it to the Island. Finally, he caused Nadia to die. You can say that he prevented Sayid from dying, but if that is true, then he willingly let Nadia walk to her doom.
ReplyDeleteJust because Jacob wears white on the show and is a historically good religious character does not imply that he is also good on the show.
Actually I have this idea....Jacob was the son of Abraham who cheated his borther Esau and took the firstborn's priviledges over a bowl of soup.I think the "villain" is actually Esau.And he's locked into eternal struggle with Jacob who is kind and good and favored by God.Just think of the similarities and...in the first scene of the finale...Jacob offers his food and he declines...It's a metaphor
ReplyDeleteNotice that locke couldn't kill Jacob himself. That follows the old greek god rule that no god can kill another, only a human can kill/hurt them.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Notice how he spoke to Hurley about seeing the dead. I believe he will come to Hurley!!
Just incase this hasn't been said already, i think it was pretty obvious why Jacob had to be there when John fell from the building. He brought john back to life when he put his hand on john's shoulder. Maybe that's just me, but i think john being dead vs john being not dead is PRETTY important.
ReplyDeleteJacob and Esau seems a bit outdated and the complete story of those guys just do not seem to mesh in this story. That is really pushing it. These guys were leaders of like large tribes. Like why the heck would they end up on this Island move around when the story pertains to Israel. Not a doggone Island with a few people and a Organization of Scientists doing experiments and Time Travel. Come on that is just far fetched and if the writers go that route they are in for some stupid looking scripts for that one to work out. These guys were leaders of like large tribes.
ReplyDeleteQ: What did Illyana call Richard when asking his name?
ReplyDelete"RICARDUS", which is Richard in Latin. His answer to her question was also in Latin.
I got an idea - season 6 is gonna be basically a whole re run of season 1, but from different angles.
ReplyDeleteThe 815 people don't realise they have already been through all of this and we will see it happen all again, but the smoke monster will turn out to be the embodyment of one of the charaters from the past - maybe Juliet? etc and lots of the other weird things that happen are gonna be revealed to be the very same people trying to warn themselves, or tell them things about the Island?
I dunno, but that would seem to be a clever and somewhat interesting last season! Answers while us being able to remember the first season with a whole new look to it! ... 'So thats what that meant!!'
:D
Catholic:
ReplyDeleteDo you remember the name of the Sailing Ship? I do not think it was supposed to be from an area or time where Latin was a common language. I believe Ricardus/Richard is from an older time than that.
I won't argue for or against biblical references, Greek mythology, literature, etc because all ancient stories have a common thread but were reinvented over time and space to improve cultural relevancy and better persuade, persecute, defend, conquer or entertain. Arguably, 'Lost' itself is a reinvention of the most basic conflict (light vs. dark, good vs. evil) with 21st century relevancy and an uncanny ability to attract followers and discussion. The difference being "we" the viewer are aware Lost is fiction and not just b/c the writers podcast. If the Lost storyline was told in 200 BC Jacob would def have some real life followers...
ReplyDeleteSo, what if the Season 6 conflict/theme is Armageddon, 2012, The End of Days (another commonality throughout cultures)? There are 2 perspectives on what 2012 means to humanity and potentially S.6 of Lost: 1) The change will be a catastrophic, violent event destroys man-kind, perhaps saving the "good" OR 2) the change will be metaphysical, a change in consciousnesses where man finally recognizes there is no light vs dark or good vs evil, because love/light is never "vs" anything. Humanity will transcend it's collective ego-mind and see that the meaning of life is love, and we are here so love may experience itself (like Rose & Bernard on the beach). If this is the direction the writers take, I can see the 6th season being really mind-blowing, or really lame.
So Jacob gets killed (bad, I guess) while all the "Lost" characters and Island get re-booted (good, I guess) - perhaps both climactic events somewhat neutralize each other allowing for the titanic struggle between good and evil to continue....
ReplyDeleteInteresting tidbit - the name "Jacob" means deceiver....
ReplyDeleteThe big old sailing ship full of dead bodies and dynamite is called the "Black Rock."
ReplyDeleteDesmond's sailboat (the one he uses on his race) is called "Elizabeth."
Desmond and Penny's sailboat (where they live with their little boy Charlie) is called "Our Mutual Friend," which is the name of the novel Desmond plans to read before he dies.
Anonymous wrote: I won't argue for or against biblical references, Greek mythology, literature, etc because all ancient stories have a common thread but were reinvented over time and space to improve cultural relevancy and better persuade, persecute, defend, conquer or entertain.
ReplyDeleteMy response to this mumbo jumbo: Your post almost does not make sense either. Armageddon in season 6. Mythology - smythology, religion whatever! Explain how to fit time travel in that. Come on!
Starting to sound like Terminator or Star Trek.
Is there any significance between the bible and the flights 815 and 315???
ReplyDeleteFlight 316!
ReplyDeleteGod is outside of time, so time travel would be as trivial as walking across the room. I think that that's where it fits in with Religion.
ReplyDeleteIf you read the book of revelation, you can see that in the heavenly worship the lamb (Christ) offers himself in sacrifice to the Father eternally, though his death on the cross happened at a specific point in time.
I don't see a conflict between the science and the supernatural aspects of the show.
And I doubt that the writers will have time to create some sort of link to Flight numbers in the story with all they still need to create to sum it all up as it is!
ReplyDeleteCatholic: So you are saying it makes sense for god to go back in time and visit himself?
ReplyDeleteno, not that.
ReplyDeleteI'm saying is that God is not "IN" time, but outside of it. He "was" before there was "before."
It's mind-boggling, but if time is just another dimension (4th) then it becomes a little easier to conceive it.
I think you all fail to forget that the creators have had the end in mind the whole time... So telling us that the creators don't have time is a bunch of bull because hey have thought of everything in detail from beginning to end if not... then why don't you have any answers?
ReplyDeleteAnnonymous: Is there any significance between the bible and the flights 815 and 316???
ReplyDeleteInteresting.
If you lookup John (Locke, ha) 8:15, it says:
"You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one."
John 3:16 is the famous "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Not sure if it's relevant, but there.
Why did Ben killed the “real” Locke? Or was that the “fake” Ben killing Locke?
ReplyDeleteNo they did not have an end in mind, not the one you think. The show was not even meant to play this long. The writers will tell you that. It was extended for a few seasons. Watch all of the ew and entertainment stuff or just believe what you would like.
ReplyDeleteLike I'm going to believe EW -- read wikipedia entirely on Lost.
ReplyDeleteCatholic: I get what you are saying. He can step in and out of time when and wherever he chooses. What I am saying is what is the need for the materials and devices for time travel in the show and mixing it with religion. It does not mesh for a conclusion. Either things are happening via science or the spiritual realm.
ReplyDeleteAnnonymous: I get what you are saying. He can step in and out of time when and wherever he chooses. What I am saying is what is the need for the materials and devices for time travel in the show and mixing it with religion. It does not mesh for a conclusion. Either things are happening via science or the spiritual realm.
ReplyDelete---
That's a false dychotomy... Things are not either spiritual or material. According to many faith traditions, a human person is both material and spiritual. In Christianity, God became man (at a specific point in time) and died. Catholicism is highly "material:" sacraments, holy water, relics, incense, bells, holy communion, are all material things that are connected and point to the spiritual realm.
In the new testament, every time a miracle is performed, Jesus uses some "material" to do it: water into wine, multiplication of the fish and loaves, spit and mud to cure the blind, etc.
There's no conflict there.
Jacob is the child of Israel, not Abraham. Abraham was Jacob's granddaddy.
ReplyDeleteAnd, if I may - the supernatural realm is 'above' the natural (hence the prefix 'super') - the spiritual doesn't need or have any reason to invalidate science. It adds dimension to it, but Christians don't/shouldn't see the two as mutually exclusive the way scientists do.
(IOW, saying "God created light" does not mean light does not have properties that are measured and explained by science. The scientist is limited to scientific explanations, though, so "God created light" is meaningless to him because it's not...scientific. And around and around we go...)
Catholic: OK so you are saying god/Jacob or whoever from the heavans caused the magnetism and time travel right. Why is there science projects and megnetic rocks and stuff in the show then. Put yourself in the writers seat since you seem to have it all figured out. How will they tell the story of these things fitting together, huh?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteOK so you are saying god/Jacob or whoever from the heavans caused the magnetism and time travel right. Why is there science projects and megnetic rocks and stuff in the show then. Put yourself in the writers seat since you seem to have it all figured out. How will they tell the story of these things fitting together, huh?
----------
I don't have it all figured out. I was just saying that the fact that there are "material stuff" on the show does not negate the possibility of a spiritual reality as well.
As Jen said... You can say that God created light and fire, but you can still use a magnifying glass to concentrate the sunlight and burn something. Material and spiritual realms are not mutually exclusive.
Catholic: I am just trying to relate to the program not have a debate about religion. I am stating the facts as I know them about the show.
ReplyDeleteThat's fine... I was just pointing out that it is legit for the creators to mishmash supernatural things to natural things.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth
ReplyDeleteHow about the statue being Thoth?
"Some like it hoth!"
It can relate to the show. This whole time everyone has been "Lost" about the science part of the island - Time Travel, electromagnetism, etc..No one on the Island has believed what is happening to them. That has been the focus on the past season, but now they are moving from science to the spiritual/mythological aspects of what is happening - Jacob, Death/Life (Locke), Good/Evil, etc.. So know everyone will have a new struggle and deal with..they will again be "Lost" in what is happening to them.
ReplyDeleteI am going with the island is Atlantis and this all happened before. Hanso knew the Island was atlantis. It has to be. After season 5 finale, I cannot think of anything else that makes much sense.
ReplyDeleteOkay, remember when Locke and Ben visited Jacob in the cabin? Ben got no response from Jacob. Locke saw Jacob and heard him say "help me". He was an old--or not bearded man sitting in the rocking chair. Was it really Jacob or was it anti-Jacob/Smokey? Was the ring of ash around the cabin broken when Locke visited? Did Locke do or inadvertantly do something to break the ring of ash and allow Jacob/anti-Jacob to escape? Was it Locke's death that broke the ash ring? When Alana went to the cabin, she said Jacob hadn't been there in a long time. Does a "long time" equate to 3 years or could it be that Jacob wasn't there when Locke went either? Why did Bram point out that the ash circle was broken before Alana entered the cabin? Thoughts anyone?
ReplyDeleteDID ANYONE NOTICE THAT JACOB WAS EATING A RED HERRING AT THE BEGINNING OF THE EPISODE??? I GUARENTEE YOU THAT EITHER:
ReplyDelete1.) THAT'S NOT THE REAL JACOB
2.) JACOB IS JUST SOME RANDOM GUY WHO DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING
REMEMBER:
Red Herring: a technique used in literature to mislead the audience
One more thought. Do you think there is any significance in the fact that Kate & Sawyer both broke the promises they made to Jacob?
ReplyDeleteCan't believe I haven't seen any theories touching on the first scene of the show:
ReplyDeleteJacob is still trying to prove the guy in black wrong. Prove him wrong about what? They brought the Black Rock there to play out this game again.
I think Richard is the captain of the Black Rock and is chosen to be some type of leader. Fast forward to Flights 815 and 316 which I believe are the new Black Rock starting a new game. I also think that Frank is a candidate to be the new Richard. Something about my thought of Richard being the captain of the Black Rock and then Frank the captain of 316.
Also...what does Locke/guy in black mean about taking care of the remaining survivors of 316? What happened to the crew of the Black Rock?
Too much going on here and I'm having a hard time gathering my thoughts!
Kate may have broken her promise, but Sawyer never promised anything to Jacob. Jacob simply gave him a pen and said he was sorry about his parents. It was Doug who made Sawyer promise not the finish the letter.
ReplyDeleteHey, you're right about Sawyer not breaking a promise. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteI'm 100% positive the statue was of Taweret. The head ware is trademark Taweret, and there are statues where she has the head of a crocodile, even a lion. This from Wikipedia:
ReplyDeleteTaweret was depicted as a composite of all the things the Egyptians feared, the major part of her being hippopotamus, since this is what the constellation most resembled, with the arms and legs of a lioness, and with the back of a crocodile. On occasion, later, rather than having a crocodile back, she was seen as having a separate, small crocodile resting on her back, which was thus interpreted as Sobek, the crocodile-god, and said to be her consort.
http://looklex.com/e.o/ill/taweret01.jpg
Sobek is a good guess, but the head ware. You've gotta give it to Taweret.
Also, anyone looking too deep into this Jacob/Esau theory....beware of the Red Herring!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring_(narrative)
"Jacob is the child of Israel, not Abraham. Abraham was Jacob's granddaddy"
ReplyDeleteJacob is Israel. Jacob is the son of Isaac who was son of Abraham.
Finally, what the HECK are these mini-commercials that mysteriously and fleetingly air right before LOST is about to come back on after break...I didn't even notice them for the longest time! Last night Penny was in it, and a flash of the word 'mosaic' showed up followed by 'what did you see?' and fade to black...strange.
ReplyDeleteThe answer is here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/11/arts/television/11arts-ABCTOFLASHFO_BRF.html?ref=arts
Wow!! Great posts. You guys have thought of everything. Just my two cents although, it is probbaly floating around in other posts.
ReplyDeleteI have been wondering what happened to Bernard and Rose since the flashes in time started to occur. My theory is they are the skelletons found in season 1.
If the bomb didn't detonate, could the DI have used it for the failsafe?
Statue of Thoth? Thoth has the head of a bird.
Statue of Ammit? Ammit is rarely depicted with the body of a man.
Statue of Taweret? Taweret is more hippo-like in most depictions.
Statue of Sobek? Sobek is probably the closest in resemblances, althogh, I can't find a picture where he ever held 2 Ankhs. He normally holds 1 ankh and 1 spear.
OMG! When Jacob says "They're coming", he's referring to Sawyer, Jack, Kate, Sayid, Jin and Hurley (Miles?). The bomb didn't go off. The losties are about to go back to the future! Jin and Sun will be reunited! And there will be war between good and evil, Others vs. Losties & Ilana and crew.
ReplyDeleteI think Lost has really outdone itself in having the most frustrating cliffhanger. I've having some major discussions about whether time has been altered OR if the 1977 group was preordained to detonate the plutonium core in the first place. Whatever the case may be, I'm happy that next season, the time travel can stop.
ReplyDeleteGreat finale, and very unexpected events unfold with Jacob and his rival's introduction. I think I have some good explanations here.
ReplyDeleteThis is what I think happened from first to last scene (besides so much else): Paul ( or whoever Jacob's rival is from scene 1) is the one who comes back and takes John Locke's form to actually kill him in the final scene (John Locke is dead). It is astonishingly great climax, but it really bothered me that Jacob didn't even put up a fight. It seemed like he was expecting it, but still strange.
Here is another theory or explanation: Paul is the one who shows up to Ben as Alex to tell him to follow John ( thought that was odd), and also take on the black monster's form to banish Ben. I am sure we will learn all about it next year.
There is only one problem with the theory that the smoke monster can reappear as dead people; If this was the case, Richard should have known that (knowing that Locke was dead) and should have realized that he wasbeing tricked.
ReplyDelete"He's a trickster, just like the devil. He's winning people over to his side and cause through supposed kindness, and will eventually have them unwittingly act out his nefarious plans, blindly thinking they're doing it for the sake of good. His mistake was in not treating Ben better than he had."
ReplyDeleteMIKE: I agree with you 100%! Jacob gave me a bad feeling during the opening scene and it stuck with me the entire episode. He's a master manipulator.
I don't think the statue was of Taweret. I think it was of Anubis, the god of the underworld. Anubis carries the ankh (the Egyptian symbol of the afterlife, or the eternal), which is clearly visible on the statue; Tawaret does not. The statue didn't have breasts. It was done in the Egyptian male style. Just my two cents.
ReplyDeleteThe statue CANNOT be Tawaret. The statue is of a male and the producers have referred to it with masculine pronouns. Since it is male, Sobek is currently one of the better candidates. Julie points out that he doesn’t have the same headpiece, and that’s true, but he acquired the sun disk later in his evolution, so maybe this is a relatively early version of him.
ReplyDeletePeople keep claiming that Jacob caught and ate a red herring. That was not a red herring. It was a red snapper. (If you don’t believe me, type “red snapper” into Google Image.) There is no such fish as a red herring. Herring are long skinny little silver fish. They are only ‘red’ if cured with particular ingredients.
If you want to argue that by having Jacob eat a red FISH they were making a pun on red herrings and sending a clue, that would at least make sense. I do like the idea that we shouldn’t jump to conclusions as to Jacob and AntiJacob being ‘good’ vs ‘bad.’ Time and again LOST makes us think somebody is a hero and then tears them down, or shows us a seeming villain and then reveals the Rest Of The Story that changes the perspective. I agree that we don’t know enough yet to guess at Jacob’s motivations. My guess is the good/bad distinction won’t be so clear-cut.
To TLP: how do you reckon Juliet is Smokey when she is one of the people who has an encounter with Smokey? She flees and hides from him with Kate in terror, gets scanned by him, and later turns on the sonic fence as a successful defense against him. I think that kind of makes it hard for her to actually BE Smokey. Plus, she had a complete life off the Island – childhood, career, relationships, etc.
She’s a human.
"God loves you, like he loved Jacob"
ReplyDeleteI think the finale was awesome, and I am excited to see what happens. I was shocked, I was shaking the whole time especially when I thought Juiete was dead. The lost writers have attached us to these characters, and I was happy to see Juliete alive!
ReplyDeleteRE: Thoth. Thoth is portrayed either as an ibis (most common) or a baboon (not as common).
ReplyDeleteIt's weird if michael emerson referred to the statue as Taweret, if the producers referred to it as masculine.
RE: Good and evil. Well, Jacob and "Esau" may not necessarily be simply good or evil, but they definitely are on opposite sides of some sort of contest or game. One is the "white pieces" and the other the "black pieces" in some bizarre game of backgammon. (Heh. Remember Locke saying that backgammon is an old game?)
Also, I really think that the Jacob/"Esau" conversation is the exact OPPOSITE of a red herring. (Very clever thought, though.) In a podcost I heard through Lostpedia proper, one of the producers said that perhaps fans would have enough puzzle pieces to formulate correct theories after (1) the Season 5 finale and (2) the first episode of Season 6. I can only conclude that the Jacob-related events were quite significant.
My theory is that Jacob is like Prospero from Shakespeare's Tempest; the smoke monster is his Ariel and the other guy his Caliban. He can't leave the island until the rightful duke (not sure who that might be) releases him.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Jacob is somehow tied to Aaron -- Aaron may even be an incarnation of Jacob.
The writers definitely had their "A" game on last night! The plot line is getting very heavy, as can be detected from all the various religious references here in the comments.
ReplyDeleteI'm wondering is this an 1800's religious cult of sort? Interesting to be finally introduced to Jacob as strangely nice as he is, but then he supposedly dies (But I don't think we've seen the last of him. He has some powers up his sleeves as well as the shape shifting Lock poseur.)
Things will probably shift via some loophole, and because the writers have 17 episodes th flush out -- we'll get a back story on Jacob, the Locke poseur, Black Rock and the reasoning behind the statue and the origins of this cult like group on the island. (Let alone whatever other diversionary tactics the writers decide to take us on.) I was wondering are some of Richard's followers part of Jacob's original cult? Lots to chew on over the long dry spell.
PS. Sorry about your father, but glad he turned you on to LOST. He was right about not all of the questions have to be answered -- it's more of enjoying the journey.
One thing I noticed about Jacob's actions towards the Oceanic Six in the flashbacks (let's call them that for the sake of argument) was that he encouraged them into certain actions or types of behavior that we already associate them with.
ReplyDeleteExample: Kate. Instead of the store owner calling her mom and reporting Kate's attempted theft of the lunchbox, Jacob enabled her to get away with stealing without consequences. That didn't allow Kate's mom to fully know about that rebellious streak and drum it out of her at that early stage of development. Basically, Jacob started her down the road that would lead her to the island: killing Wayne, being on the run, going to Australia, and ultimately being on 815.
And: The version of James "Sawyer" "Jim LaFleur" Ford that we know finished the letter to Tom Sawyer/Anthony Cooper. If Jacob hadn't been there with that pen, Sawyer might not have finished that letter, which served as a physical reminder to him to hold onto vengeance. That drive for vengeance eventually led him to Australia, because Hibbs manipulated him into going there to kill Frank Duckett.
And, well, John Locke wouldn't have come to the island if he'd been dead.
I don't know what the signficance of Jacob giving the Apollo Bar to Jack was, other than that he was coming to the mainland over a long period of time and checking in with people.
So I infer that Jacob was part of manipulating them to come to the island in the first place (getting them on that one plane that was going to crash on the island).
Can we assume that anytime we saw Christian Shepherd walking around, it was Esau? Or was it Jacob? One of them, anyway, convinced Claire under false pretenses (i.e. that he was her father) to leave Aaron on a leaf (either for Sawyer to find, or to leave him to die). There's something important there. I don't yet know what.
Anyway, this was an awesome episode and cliffhanger. I have no problem with it and can't wait to watch seasons 1-5 over again before season 6!! :)
welll, theoretically, juliet could still be smokey, as she/it would continue from this point on (1977) as smokey, which means she/it could conceivably encounter her younger self in 2004 on the island.
ReplyDeleteall i know for certain is that s6 is going to be absolutely remarkable. TPTB have had an ending in mind since the show's inception and have stated as much on several instances; now they're going to prove it... and i know it's gonna be stupendous because nothing they have done yet has been mediocre.
I'd like you guys input on this. I blogged earlier about whether the losties and all ever talked events and just the weird stuff over and compared notes.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason I have a feeling that James did this with Horace and that is why he and the others got put on Security. Was there a Security detail before they arrived in 1974?
Horace went from wanting to send them away to putting them in a very sensitive position in less than 3 years it seems. With all their tech stuff and the ability to go off island wouldn't it make more sense if Horace had someone in say Ann Arbor do a background check on the losties? And if they did do a check they would find that none of these people existed in any records such as a SS card or driver's card. If the Island is so secret and the reason DI is there is because of its strange abilities, if the Hanso foundation spent all that time and money..surely they wouldn't just take strangers in like that.
I think since Horace was the head man that he probably knew about time travel. And that he cornered the losties and they told him who they really were and probably what he wanted to hear about the DI's future without mentioning the Purge. Knowing that time travel was really doable, it probably speeded up Dr. Chang's work combined with Daniel going to work in Ann Arbor. They knew he was a physicist and probably Eliose knew who he was and told them to take him in because he could show them the way to time travel.
Perhaps being able to time travel is how the DI expected to change the numbers to stop the world from ending. The DI wasn't on that island for the fun of it all.
I also think that Daniel was the very clever young man who built the Lamp Post station while he was off Island for 3 years. Eloise knew back then that it would be crucial for the future losties to go back and get in the war.
Excellent episode, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Very well directed, I thought it flowed really well considering how much was going on at once.
ReplyDeleteI was glad to finally see Jacob - I was growing weary of all the OTT speculation that Jacob was one of the existing characters (Jack/Claire/Christian etc). Though he did seem to have quite an uneasy vibe to me, somewhat attributable to his appearance as 'Paul' in the Dexter series I'm sure.
Now for my OTT speculation...
Juliet did set off Jughead, and this has caused some change in the future. Remember how the Others' village still had a DHARMA 'induction' sign swinging when Sun and Lapidus visited the island back in 2007. To me this indicates that they're in a different timeline to the events that happened originally in 2004 when the losties crashed. This would explain why 2007 Richard said he saw them die. I think maybe when Jughead was set off it worked in conjunction with the electro-magnetic energy to propel Kate/Jack/Sawyer etc to another point in time, pre-2007 (possibly back in statue time, and Richard eventually sees them die under other circumstances. Of course, I look forward to being proved wrong come season 6 :)
The Egyptian/Greek Mythology and Biblical references (among others) are very interesting, (not to mention significant clues) but I don't think Lost is simply a retelling of any of those stories. I think the writers draw influence from them and reference aspects of them, creating a mishmash of mythology which is then utilized to tell the unique story of Lost.
Ok so I have to throw this in; the statue isn't sobek or anybody else that has been listed and here is why:
ReplyDelete1) if you look at the shot from the beginning of the episode, the statue has some sort of hat on it, sobek doesn't have one.
2) even more obvious, the statue is holding two ankhs and every picture i've seen only shows these statues holding one.
Also, imo Juliet definitely set the bomb off....the incident was NOT the bomb going off...if that bomb had gone off, who would have been there to rebuild everything? And there would be an enormous hole in the ground not the flat landscape we always saw around the hatch. On top of that, the flash of the eye in the end def does not mean thats the beginning of the first episode from season one....It MIGHT mean that the new season will be an alternate season 1, but lets face it...that would be very very lame.
Finally, the Man in Black I believe does seem to be the smoke monster, there are just two many ties to ignore. Also, the contrast of jacob in white, and this guy in black def shows the two 'demi-gods' fighting myth to make more sense. I also think that the fade to white was an amazing way to end the episode...hands down best episode of lost yet; hope they can keep that up in the last season.
Jacob is a cylon. Fact.
ReplyDeleteI think the statue is showed as destroyed in the future because the nuke destroyed it. "What happened happened".
ReplyDeleteGreat season finale - I will be watching this one several times over the break. So many nuances, mysteries solved, mysteries presented.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad we FINALLY met Jacob. Of course I'm sure we'll be seeing more of him to come. With that kind of buildup I can't see them killing him off THAT easily (I agree with Dylon about the weak Ben Linus stabbing...CMON, Ben!!!)
I am most interested about the new Jacob adversary or, as I refer to him, UnLocke.
I guess we're headed for some apocalyptic clash of the titan kind of battle - at least that's the impression I'm getting. Earlier this season I started to think Locke was just a pawn being used by Ben and Charles...guess that is UnLocke and Jacob doing the manipulation.
I'm thinking Richard Alpert was a crewmember or captain of the Black Rock. Even in the world of Lost, they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of showing him working on that ship in the bottle for no reason. Perhaps he was killed at some point and "preserved" by Jacob. I'm hoping we get a back story on him in S6. Mr Guyliner himself :)
As for the Incident...a lot of the ideas I'm thinking of on it have already been posted here. I need to watch this ep a few more times to really take it in.
Any significance in fake-Locke kicking Jacob 'into the fire'??
ReplyDeleteLots of god vs lucifer symbology there? Is the 'evil' Jacob being cast into the fire? Or is the evil Locke kind of having revenge?
My theory - I think Lost is a symbolic portrayal of religion in the world today. Good vs Evil and how people react to it. Dharma shows Science trying to explain 'energy', God or religion, Rose and Bernard show how happiness can be found. Ben's 'why him not me speech' had extremely relevant religious undertones.
The smoke monster can either be seen as a 'judging god' or as the devil, a trickster. On the flipside Jacob can be seen to be unfair by Ben, just as many people cast aside an 'unfair' God. All conflict comes in the show by people being convinced they are following the right 'God' the right 'Island' - is the show saying something about the dangers of religious beliefs?
I think Lost's ending will allow all different viewers to form their own ideas - based on science, religion, or 'how god should be'. You explain 'Lost' in the same way you explore your own religious/non-religious ideas.....
Anyway, just some ideas out there - but I think Lost is meant to be representational rather than just some story... Pretty ambitious if thats the case!
carrying on from the last point, the whole 'fate', the island is like a piece of string thing is very much like much religious theology.
ReplyDeleteFor example, many christians believe that God has a plan mapped out for you. However although he knows the start and the end point, as Faraday says, 'like a piece of string' everyones free will allows them to reach that planned point in the future in their own unique ways.
Some characters have 'faith' in the island, like many people have faith in God - some characters have put their faith in Dharma, like many put theirs in Science. Some characters just want to survive, do the 'right thing' possibly find love and help others, just like some people aren't interested in science or religion, but 'live life for the moment' and try to create their own happy ending....
MAybe I'm reading far too much into this, but it's really interesting!
Matt has some good thoughts here. We have to recognize that this story is not a direct link to any one biblical or mythical story, but a stand alone story that is influenced by similiar aspects of many stories.
ReplyDeleteIn the Bible, Jacob and Esau are not caught in a never ending struggle. It is actually a moving story about forgiveness. In the end Jacob (after having his name changed to Israel) must go back to his homeland to assume the responsibilities of the first born (ironic!) and face Esau. He sends waves of gifts to soften Esau's anger, but finds that Esau has since had a change of heart and forgives him for his deceit many years earlier. Nice.
The statue is not meant to represent an existing god or mythical creature. This may be cheating, but on one of the video podcasts, the prop master decided against the statue foot having 6 toes because it wouldn't be as obvious at quick glance that it was different. So he opted for four so it would be obvious. This motivation speaks more about storytelling rather than adhering to an existing idea.
Also I believe the bomb was detonated. It doesn't have to wipe everyone out or kill the remaining DI as it detonated so far underground. It was enough though to contaminate the surface. Remember, Desmond and Kelvin put on the hazmat suits to avoid contamination. We were reminded of that recently when Daniel met Desmond outside the hatch and in the finale when John pointed out the hatch door marked "quarantine". We always thought this was a "red herring" (if I may) to keep the button pushers in the Swan. Perhaps there really was a quarantine and real radioactive contamination! Both events could happen at the same time; the explosion and time shifting.
Also, I think the Esau/Black shirt character is the black smoke. I think he appeared as Christian, bad Locke, Yemmi, Danielle's crew, etc. When Locke was checked out by the smoke the first time, it knew from his life that he could be manipulated. John was the loophole. I couldn't figure out why the smoke killed Eko because he proved to be truly good. In the end, he could not be manipulated, or controlled. So it killed him.
What happens next I don't know, but I think things will be for the losties disappointingly the same. There seems to be an epic cycle that keeps spinning. The long awaited change (referred in the first scene) happens in the present with Jacob being stabbed, not in the past with the bomb.
If Not-Locke is Smokey, how come Not-Locke had to ask Ben what happened in the Temple? Smokey was there.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if it was Smokey, and not Jacob, when Ben and Locke went to the cabin, how come Not-Locke asks Ben what really happened at the cabin?
everything sums up like a different version of Matrix where the "architect" is Jacob, making revisions in history back and forth all the time.
ReplyDeleteif a bad guy was there pushing locke out the window to kill him and Jacob also there to raise him up from the dead, it seems he needed him alive so everything progresses on his grant plan
Seems that the two guys fight all the time, the one to keep the island secret and the other to bring new characters... who knows...
The fake Locke asked Ben those questions to make him angry and to question his loyalty to Jacob. Manipulating him in to wanting to kill Jacob. Ben had to admit he had never meet Jacob, that had to have made him angry, it humiliated him. Also, having his dead daughter tell him to do what ever Locke asked of him, again setting Ben up to help the fake Locke kill Jacob. He made Ben bring up all these sore subject to get him to kill Jacob.
ReplyDelete"Σοι δε θεοί τόσα δοιεν, όσα φρεσί σησί μένοινας" actually means that gods give to people only what their heart desires and not more than that, because if you give him more that he can handle, it would probably kill him. Think about it. That's a philosophical point of view, because at the end of the day, man chooses to do what his heart tells him and not what God asks him to do... (e.g. Sawyer listens to Juliet, think about that..)
ReplyDeleteWhen the first scene opened, and Jacob was weaving his tapestry, was anyone else reminded of the movie "Wanted" with Angelina Jolie? Where the assassins' targets were determined by a "loom of fate".
ReplyDeleteI'm wondering if Jacob's tapestry directly depicts his chosen group that he watches over, more specifically, the final survivors of 815.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek
ReplyDeleteThis is the first time I have posted on here and have enjoyed reading the different theories. It just goes to show the remarkable complexity of this fantastic show.
ReplyDeleteHowever, despite the writing team's ability to weave complex story lines, they have made some fairly obvious continuity errors.
In this episode the young James Ford was seen writing with his right hand, when Sawyer/Josh Holloway has always been left handed throughout the show. I know this seems like bitching about a minor point, but it took away some of the authenticity of the narrative and is one of many similar errors that have been made, particularly this season.
Anyway, amazing episode, lots to think about over the next few months.
the god is no twaret, he is sobek the crocodile god http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek
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ReplyDeleteGreat, great, great episode. Excellent ending! Did it explode or not?
ReplyDeleteNow I really hope that Juliet is NOT dead, because that would make another top female character to die in an extreme and violent accident of fate (Shannon, Danielle, Ana Lucia, Libby, Charlotte...). Have the writers got some issues with strong women?
Anyway, if she's dead, she'll be remembered as a tragic character: a kid whose parents divorce changed her life, made her lose faith in love, who then tried to save her sister from illness and sacrificed her carreer for it, got conned & trapped by Ben, fell in love with men who deceived her (Ethan, Jack, Sawyer) and then tried to fix everything by nuking herself off.
Juliet's character was sometimes inconsistant, but Elizabeth Mitchell's work has always been top quality and her screen presence really balanced the dullness of Evangeline Lilly's void stare.
Her being on the last seconds of the finale before the bomb supposedly goes off, I'm pretty sure she'll be dead next season, but if the writers are still hesitating (and if they read this), please save her!!!
I watched the Lost finale a few days after I watched Star Trek, and the two models of time travel are merging in my mind.
ReplyDeleteIn Star Trek, all the familiar characters fall into the same ranks and social roles as on the original series - they just do it via a different path.
That said, I think Season Six will begin with Oceanic 815 landing in L.A. (or crashing, but not on the island). The characters then roughly duplicate the same relationships we've seen on the show -- but in a different setting. The same people die, the same people pair up, etc...
There will be intense dramatic irony in wondering *how* it will all happen.
i was just wondering, what is the role of Jin and Sun? and what about their baby? she was conceived on the island so she had to be special, just as aaron was born there.
ReplyDeleteIf Locke is this evil dude and it was that easy for him to just walk in and kill Jacob and use Ben as his loophole, that is rinky dink dude! How lame, after all these years he just now figures out he can take on some dead bodies form and convince someone to kill Jacob, come on, how damn desperate are the writers if this turns out to be the case.
ReplyDeleteIdea/theory: Jacob and the other guy are gods that play a game with each other to entertain themselves because being gods, they have seen and done it all. When the dark shirt god says to Jacob "You know how bad I want to kill you", he means it in a way that is similar to like check mate in chess and whoever kills the other first wins the game and then it will need new characters to play again. In the rules they must not engage each other directly or reveal themselves to the characters. My guess is the god in the black shirt has not won in a long time and really wants to kill Jacob to win for once. The Island is the chess board and all that happens are within the rules of the game laid out by the gods themselves. They may use any and all means necessary to achieve a victory including psychological manipulation. Think about how many times, even since season one, that games and colors of playing pieces are referenced. Hence all the black and white items on the island. Remember when Jack first found the black and white rock on the skeleton in the caves and when Locke first had the backgammon board on the beach??? What are your thoughts on this?
ReplyDeleteI am sure we will see Jacob in some form or the other. He was too passive sorta of Jesus like the lamb led to slaughter. The demon in the Stand left the scene just before the bomb exploded remember and came ashore on an island with a different form. Perhaps by letting Ben stab him without even trying to dodge the knife, then letting Unlocke kick him in the fire is his way of shedding one form to become another one. He got to say "they are coming" then was gone.
ReplyDeleteIf the Enemy guy can take on a Locke form (now we know they can't make the dead come back) then why can't jacob?
Even Richard Alpert was amazed to be told Locke rose from the dead. I loved the smart comeback Unlocke made about that being no stranger than a man who never ages.
They are there to alter their life's course and destiny before they die or resume their lives in the real world after working out their personal conflict that they each had before coming to the island. They all will have to make a choice for better or worse. John Locke is the one that is going to help or force them to make that choice. He has been doing this since the beginning of the show. He has interacted with every single character during a time of their personnel beliefs or conflicts that they must choose a path to follow, whether it be the one less traveled or not. It all started with Charlie and his addiction. And it seems to be ending with Ben killing Jacob... Well of course season 6 has not aired yet. Those who choose the righteous path will leave purgatory/the island and go to Heaven or get what their life desires, those who do not will go to Hades and/or get nothing. What are your thoughts??? Seems a little like Fantasy Island huh?
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone think the island could be the lost island of ATLANTIS?
ReplyDeleteSuddenly we have an Egyptian God Statue, references to Penelope from the Greek Mythological book 'the Odysea' I don't know. All these mythological occurences are somehow remindind me Atlantis. An ancient civilized way ahead of its time island with mystical powers...
The survivors of flight 815 never counted all the bodies. They just presumed whomever they did not find that was on the planes travel manifest was dead. My theory is this is what has happened since the beginning: On original Flight 815 there were survivors of another incident trying to return to the island. These people were tossed into a different time as were some of the new survivors were in flight 316 when they tried to return to the island. We have not met this group of Losties that were kicked back in time from flight 815 or know their identity yet. Season 6 will bring all the groups that have time traveled to different years to one singularity point in the current time because of the death of Jacob... Hence "They are coming"!!! Not just our Losties that we know but all Losties that have ever came to the island and have been time shifted. It has been a circle until now. Locke has found his loophole and has been able to bring them all into the current time period thus ending the cycle of Losties coming and going to and from the island and jaunting around in time. What do you think of my theory??? Lots of new characters in season six, don't you think? Guys from the Black Rock, Danielle's boat, Airplanes, war vets and so on and so on throughout the ages. Purgatory Ends! Hope you could follow that, I know what I mean but hard to put on paper.
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ReplyDeleteGreat review. So about this Taweret figure. From Wikipedia: "her name means (one) who is great. When paired with another deity, she became the demon-wife of Apep, the original god of evil.
ReplyDeleteA deity is a postulated preternatural or supernatural immortal being, who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, and respected by believers."
Seriously that might explain something. what i dunno, but a bit of a coincidence. :O
To: Claire.is.dead.Jin.is.aliveSeth has the head of a Jackal... the one with the head of a crocodile and holding an ahnk is Sobek. Sobek was connected with the Nile, and protected the king (Jacob?).
ReplyDeleteISAAC, not Israel, oof, sorry! *headsmack* Thanks for the correction.
ReplyDeleteI don't think a fish called a red herring actually exists. Red herring as a food item refers to herring that's been smoked, salted & cured. But is there a breed of fish called 'red' herring? I don't think so.
It could have been a herring, and meant the same thing. Except a herring is more of a northern ocean fish. Not that we know where the island really is...
The first scene was very very interesting. I agree in that it seems that Jacob has been repeatedly bringing people to the island in an attempt to show his enemy the something about the nature of people in general.
ReplyDeleteI keep thinking about when Jacob says "The end is the same and everything before that is progress." It seems the Jacob vs. Enemy debate is about destiny vs. free will or something along those lines.
I wonder if Aaron might end up being the "new" Jacob. Which would explain why Clair, if she were involved with the enemy, wouldnt want him to come back to the island.
What im wondering most is, Where will Walt fit in to all this?
Is the Fortune teller that read Claire's fortune Montand? Hmmm!
ReplyDeleteYou mean the Farmer where Kate worked before she was caught?
ReplyDeleteI will have to re-watch, however, does anyone recall what Jacob said to Ben, after Ben was observing hieroglyphics on the wall in Jacobs layer? I think he said something like "You like those? I drew them myself" Then says something like "I've had to keep the people afraid of me somehow"...or something like that. Can someone re-watch that scene and confirm? im at work right now so can't do it. IF he did say this, does this signify that he is GOD or something? just a thought....
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