Recently on Twitter, I posed the question that asked the followers of Lostpedia what they thought of Daniel's death. One user, jabraha, posed the question that "is Daniel dead in the future? Since he died before he was actually born, will he still be born in the future?"This is a common misconception among fans, and quite an easy one to make. Though Daniel did say shortly before his death that "this is our present...any one of us can die," some people may still not understand the logistics of Lost-ian time travel.
Daniel will still be born because he died in his present, even though it was before he was born. His life, though it did not occur throughout linear time, occurred in a linear way to him. He was born, he grew up, he came to the island, he was teleported back to the '70's, he died. His birth and death are two independent events, regardless of what time period they take place in.
I know that this blog post hasn't been particularly eloquent, but perhaps it clears up one of those murky misconceptions about Lostian time travel.
It's because of people like that, asking obvious questions, that TPTB are dumbing down scenes and having Hurley spell it out for the slow-coaches.
ReplyDeleteI have a fear that everyone is as dumb as Jack and Kate in real life.
Daniel explaining stuff to the other losties is simply LOST explaining things to dumbasses.
@Michael
ReplyDeleteThere's no need for bashing like that, man. It was pretty obvious to me, too, but not everybody understands this things at first.
And, actually, I think it's nice having the characters "explaining" (in a dissimulated way) some Lost exotic stuff, so we can be sure that we're thinking the "right" way. ;)
@luiSousa
ReplyDeleteSorry for the outburst, it just a bit frustrating, you understand haha.
I'm wanting to see new material and ideas, not have things explained to me 3 times because not everyone "gets" it.
I mean all this light heartedly of course, I just need more LOST! :P
@Michael
ReplyDeleteGood job acting all goofy to cover up for being an ass in the first post. I haven't had a problem understanding the time travelling either, but some of my friends who are also huge Lost fans have had some problems with it, so I understand if it is hard to pick up (not everybody has a good science fiction background).
And other than the Hurley/Miles conversation, which I though was one of the high points this season, and the 30 second (if that) exchange between Jack and Daniel at the sonic fence, how has the show had to dumb-down scenes? Millions of people are watching a show about time-travel; forgive the writers if they feel obligated to spend a few minutes making sure all the viewers are on the same page.
it sort of bugs me they even had dan say this to Jack... about this particular type of misconception regarding time travel... that one has a "local" present, regardless of what time period it is for another person or set of people.
ReplyDeleteotoh, I'm not too annoyed, I've read lots of sci fi and this is one thing one has to get to even think about various sorts of time travel... note: one also has to realize this to think about time warp of the scientific (as opposed to sci-fi) kind... we each have our own local "time".
-harcourt
I'm still not sure he is dead!!!
ReplyDeleteHere's a graphic explanation:
ReplyDelete_____________________
normal timeline
_________
| |
|___ |
__________________|
Dan's timelime
Sorry about the anonymous post above - the formatting didn't come through. Dan's timeline is supposed to look like a spiral doubling back on itself.
ReplyDeleteI have always thought LOST's time travelling wasn't too weird and pretty easy to understand. But I have seen people get confused so many times on the forums. I think part of the reason is they read other fan theories that are super complicated and that makes the show seem more complicated too.
ReplyDeleteI think Faraday is dead, but that if they manage to change the timeline at all, we might see him in an alternate future. But if they change the timeline, then all bets are off! Who knows what would happen.
You got to remember... LOST is probably the DEEPEST show ever in show history....
ReplyDeletenot everybody can latch on thats why ratings havent been as high as first two seasons cuz people got lost... however i LOVE the depth and Psychology of this show...
KUDOS to JJ ABRAMS , Cuse and Lindeloff....
@Robert
ReplyDeleteWell said, brotha, well said! ;D
Actually, it is very likely that Daniel was several years old in 1977. He first met Desmond in Oxford in 1996 and he was clearly older than 19. I believe he must have been born in the early '70s.
ReplyDeleteDunno how he would be raised with his mother still on the Island though. He couldn't have spent much time there, otherwise he would have had a nosebleed during the time skips.
ReplyDeleteAs for the timelines, well I believe there are many (most likely infinite) but the one we're seeing won't be changed, because it would completely negate the story so far. I'm not saying Daniel was wrong about his theory concerning the variables. His death neither proves nor disproves this because with or without WHH you can still die.
Who knows, maybe if Lost was a comedy, like Back to the Future, more people would get it. Obviously Marty McFly is a Variable.
ReplyDeleteEloise knew that Daniel's purpose was to become an authority on quantum physics, learn about the Island and travel there to complete a time loop which, for him, ends with telling everyone about the bomb - and unfortunately dying in the process.
ReplyDeleteIn doing this, the hostiles (most probably along with Jack and Kate) are able to utilise Jughead to offset the effects of Swan's energy 'eruption'. The catastrophic alternative would have been quite simply, 'the end of the world'.
If I am correct about this singular fact, it unlocks many more doors in the complex maze of questions posed by the writers.
For one, it would suggest that the 'masters' of the Island's secrets are locked in an eternal struggle to save it from absolute destruction - or as Eloise puts it, 'course correcton'. The lengths in which they must go to in order to achieve this is both mirrored in Desmond's ultimately fruitless struggle to save Charlie and is seen in the exploits of the 'others' through the course of lost (lists - to ensure that everyone is in the right place, building runways and listening to a singular, apparently 'all knowing' entity etc...)
Following this to its logical conclusion, the war that Widmore speaks of is that between those forces seeking to continue the perpetual struggle to alter the time line and avoid a supposed apocolypse, and those wishing to let time run its natural course - whatever may happen. Again, this over-arching story is referenced in microcosm during season 2 - the pushing of the button - and thoughout Lost as 'science vs faith'
If this is accurate then it sheds light on the following mysteries, (as well as many more that I haven't fully contemplated yet!):
- The need for the Oceanic 6 to return to the Island. Failure to do so, would have negated Daniel's trip back from ann-arbour in 1977.
- Locke's requirement to turn the wheel - this stopped the island's time/space movement in 1977 - exactly where it needed to be.
- Why Eloise said 'god help us all' in response to Ben's "what happens if I can't get them all back" query.
So taking into account some pre-meditated actions ahead of Daniel's death - and barring a possible revival of sorts, he is definitely dead, the time-lords (sorry about the Dr who nod!) of Lost can be confirmed as:
- Eloise
- Jacob (whoever this may be)
- Christian Shepherd (by Proxy)
- and most probably, Richard
I could be totally wrong about all of this, but I feel that the untangling of Lost has really begun properly in 'the variable'. There's still a lot to answer, but this episodes' revelations have laid an excellent foundation for the completion of the phenomenon that is LOST.
I really could carry on and on - for another thing, this one rahter central, time related revelation also suggests a more unwitting involvement from Ben. I had previously thought that he was 'the man with the plan', but now I think that he is just another pawn in the Island's quest for self-protection - i'll bet odds to dollars that 'Jacob' gave him the lists and told him to build a runway on Hydra Island. Yep - more course correction!
ReplyDeleteRight - I'm gonna shut up now - until the next episode!
One thing that time travel doesn't explain is the seemingly random change of colour that Dan's suit does from when he and Miles leave Jack to go to the Orchid to when they arrive there..
ReplyDeleteAnyone any ideas on why?
blooper..pure and simple
ReplyDeleteI find this similar to the problem some less-observant fans had with the simultaneous Sun and Jin storylines in "Ji Yeon". If anyone is paying attention to the storyline, they should get the timeline. It's not that hard to follow.
ReplyDeleteYou guys crack me up. Calling people stupid who ask dumb questions about time travel! Oh no! How could they.. Wake up. Every question is valid. No theory is uproven until someone actually travels through time. Douches.
ReplyDeleteI think Mr. Reck is right. There are two simultaneous different time lines going on here. No director would make such a huge mistake as different color clothes on a main character without a reason.
ReplyDeleteRemember that this is above all else a television show. The powers have got an ending and it will no doubt knock our socks off however it plays out. I have really enjoyed this show and enjoyed getting friends hooked on it with me. I can't imagine the creators ending with some lame story that makes the whole thing an endless loop. If they do that to all the loyal fans I will be very disappointed won't ya'll? Even with the bloopers we have to admit this show has been top quality acting and everything. Daniel made me cry with the "will you be proud of me" line.
ReplyDeleteNow..my theory is that the bomb can't possibly be used to stop anything. Whether the incident could take out the world or not..that Island will not allow itself to be zapped with a hydrogen bomb. Remember your history about the arms race. In the mid fifties there were a lot of bombs tested in the Pacific, but the biggie was one test called Bravo. It was detonated in the Bikini Atolls. That was my first thought when we had the storyline of Jughead. When Bravo was detonated it wiped out the very island it was on and all the others around it. The army had parked used up warships around it and a lot of stuff to see what it could do. Those islands cannot be inhabited to this day safely. A lot of research has been done there including a massive clean up of the radioactive sand/dirt on the islands. Wildlife has come back and maybe someday people can live there again..maybe they already do but it took about 50 years for the Atoll to be safe after the cleanup. I sure wouldn't volunteer to visit that spot on Earth would any of you? Be as foolish as living at ground zero of Chernoble don't you think?
Point being..that Island won't let itself be destroyed by a bomb. If the bomb was used why was there still a mound of concrete under the hatch? The incident will probably happen and the DI will contain it as best as possible. Maybe Dr. Chang will believe what Dan told him and stop the drilling just short of total mayhem.
Some things can be altered in time, but I don't think the overall result will change that much. If that bomb goes off, everyone on and within many miles of the Island will be vaporized instantly. I doubt even the Sub could get far enough away to save the people on it. If nothing else that sure would bring a roaring halt to the story and we have one more season to go.
What will happen happened and I think that the grand reunion with all of them in whatever time flight 316 crashed will happen. Weren't all our main characters already born by 1977? If Jack or somebody manages to detonate Jughead then the time will just loop back around again. Maybe the allowing of the incident, etc is what the Island wants and for the war to take place and stop this endless looping of time.
I just watched the episode again on my PC..did ya'll notice how often various characters said the line "excuse me, do we know one another" or words to that effect. Even the lovely dark eyed Richard said them..again..to Daniel.
This week will be another great episode. I kinda miss Locke and Ben and loved all the tension between the original group. We need to see all the Losties again and find out about Rose and Bernard.
There has been much discussion around the whole 'science vs faith' dichotomy that appears to exist in this show, but honestly, other than the quarreling of Jack and Locke in earlier seasons about miracles, I don't see it. What I do see is a dichotomy between 'you can change the past/future' and ' what happened, happened.' That is not a issue of faith vs science - what part of that is an issue of faith? Either way, it is a description of how time travel functions, which is a fictional occurrence that has been approached in this show from a primarily scientific standpoint. It is a struggle between the notion of free will in changing history, and the notion that a fixed timeline is occuring and has already occured, hences is unchangable.
ReplyDeleteYes, there are still many things that are unknown to us, and we still have a whole season to explain these things.
As far as faith goes, I would bet serious money that fans would be angry and disappointed if at the end of all this, the big explanation for the island is and all of its mysteries is that 'a big supernatural force is controlling it and we should all have faith'.
I can't recall if we have ever talked about who Desmond's parents might be. So far most everyone's parent issues have finally been explained. Except Charlotte maybe. We see a woman with her, but is that her real Mom? and who was her father?
ReplyDeleteDesmond had to have parents at one point but I don't recall his mentioning them or seeing them in flashback. Actually he didnt have a traditional flash back, but was actually time traveling every time.
Could Hanso be the daddy or maybe the Degroots. Wouldn't that be awesome that those people had a kid to save the island. Creepy no?
@ MerLud:
ReplyDeleteI don't understand how anyone can NOT see the obvious faith/religion vs science dichotomy in this show.
On one side we have the Others, who follow some unknown entity known as Jacob that only a few claim they can see or hear and follow his "rules" that govern how they should live and what actions they take. This is no different than peoples' Faith in God (Jacob), the "prophets" who claim they can hear him (Ben, Widmore), and the moral laws that govern those believing in God (Jacob's "messages" regarding their behavior) that we see in religion today. Not to mention the whole resurrection after death thing (Ben and Locke both "raised from the dead." Lazarus and Jesus were both raised from the dead).
On the other side we have DHARMA which is primarily made up of scientists who study the island. They refer to the island's strange "properties" and try to explain (and exploit?) them from a scientific standpoint whereas the Others' explanation involves something mysterious and mythical.
There is an obvious dichotomy between those who believe in this unseen entity (Jacob, the island itself) as the explanation for all that happens and those who believe that science (electromagnetism, parapsychology, time travel, etc.) explains everything. How is this not related to Faith/Religion vs Science?
I could go on and on pointing out the other instances where faith/religion vs science was a central theme, but, alas, I must get back to work . . .
Red Fox: I do see your point, however mystery does not equate to mythology and faith necessarily. Because we still don't know the history of the Others, the Island, the Monster, etc does not mean that it is just all a matter of faith. It means that it has not been explained yet. So far in the show, everything that has been explained has been so with a rational, scientific explanation. While there definitely ARE big religion connotations used in this show - as you pointed out, the role of Jacob, the names Jacob, Aaron, etc, the Egyptian mythology, etc etc - that does not necessitate a dichotomy of 'science vs faith'. If anything, it demonstrates a kind of compatibility or, if you will, a symbiotic relationship between science and religion/mythology, not an ongoing battle between the two.
ReplyDeleteWas nice to see that they didn't even do anything Daniel said "fill it with concrete and bury it"... this doesn't really equal "put it in an underground lair".
ReplyDeleteAnd loved their approach too... yes, let's all gather round a hydrogen bomb with flaming torches...
Question: how did they get the bomb underground there if not by the water hole?
OK.. No one call me dumb but.. I understand how our main folks are deaing with time travel but why is Richard oblivious to it when he is always there. Also, how about the Others? I mean, we know Ethan was born during the Dharma initiative then aged and was an Other.. then died. Why is richard, The advisor so out of the loop on this?
ReplyDeleteThe biggest problem with the time travel logic is the paradox that will occur. If they detonate the bomb and stop 815 from crashing then nobody from the plane will be around the island to travel back to 1977 and detonate the bomb therefore letting the incident occur.
ReplyDeleteTherefore the only outcomes are:
ReplyDelete- "throwing them out of the timeloop", or:
- Miles is right and whatever happened, happened.
Michael's comments are valid.
"time travel" is not a new concept, and it's not even a difficult concept.
Back To The Future didn't dumb it down for morons, why is Lost doing it? Are people stupider now than they were in the 80s?
The Hurley and Miles conversation was painful to watch - neither of them have previously appeared that dumb. I understand that it needed to be explained in case there were some really braindead people watching TV at home, but it didn't need to be dumbed down quite so much.
I don't know why anyone would have any trouble understanding the storyline, unless they're deliberately trying to be dense.
Perhaps the intent was to make Hurley and Miles the stupidest people in the world, so any mouth-breathers at home could feel good about themselves.
@"Tue May 05, 12:58:00 PM"
In the Lost world, there are apparently no "multiple timelines" - whatever happens, happened.
@"Tue May 05, 08:15:00 PM" - *facepalm*, congratulations, your's is the stupidest comment here.
@DJ - Just because Richard didn't reveal anything doesn't mean he doesn't know anything.