Comments on Lostpedia Blog: Deconstructing: Fake Oceanic Flight 815

Even before the footage of the plane in the ocean ...

2009-12-23T10:26:00.750-05:00

Even before the footage of the plane in the ocean was shown, I've thought this: When the plane entered the island's "bubble", an alternate 815 from a very similar reality which was also hitting the bubble, entered the prime reality, and that is the plane that crashed. So the 815 in the ocean, and the 815 on the island, are both real. The alternate 815 in the ocean, was being piloted by alternate frank lapidus, which is why he didn't recognize the corpse as being his friend! Either Ben or Widmore had the evidence of a "fake" 815 created, to convince the other that it was a fake and not an alternate reality - trying to prevent the other from finding out about multiple alternate realities.

This was one of those "wouldn't it be cool" theories for a long time for me, which I didn't put a lot of stock in, until the rumours coming along about what happens in season six...

Nick123 Vindicated! The popular opinion that Ben h...

2009-05-02T11:09:33.181-04:00

Nick123 Vindicated! The popular opinion that Ben had to do it because Widmore would not need someone to bring this information to him can be explained away without too much trouble. Does anyone think that Widmore would trust this data to anyone other than himself? He needed all of the evidence in his own possession in order to be sure it stayed buried. But Ben grabbed it and likely killed Felix in the process.

If the recap statement about Widmore and the wreck...

2009-04-27T14:25:37.150-04:00

If the recap statement about Widmore and the wreckage was false, the producers will surely address it in an interview or podcast. They would not let such a serious error be broadcast without comment. They corrected the Charlotte birth-year blunder and that was not this blatant (i.e. it could have been explained within the story as Ben having bad intel or just misspeaking). If we don't get a retraction by the producers on this I'd say it's been canonized.

I can not believe the writers of this show would p...

2009-04-26T22:22:59.888-04:00

I can not believe the writers of this show would put this information out in a recap episode. This is too important for just a narrative to clear up.

Silly. I do not believe for one minute if Widmore orchestrated it, he'd need this information delivered to him.

I still believe this was information that Felix dug up about Ben and Tom and was delivering this proof to Widmore.

Just a quick question relating to the staged wreck...

2009-04-24T18:26:18.314-04:00

Just a quick question relating to the staged wreckage...in the news reports that covered the finding of the wreckage, it said that all passengers on board were accounted for. Now I know that we know it was a hoax, but the rest of the world must have wondered whose bodies were in the eight survivors' seats? (Oceanic 6 minus Aaron, plus Boone, Charlie and Libby) Maybe I missed where that was explained. Anyone wanna help me out?

Edward is right. The narrator of last night's cli...

2009-04-24T14:34:13.419-04:00

Edward is right. The narrator of last night's clip show flat out stated that Widmore did it.

Someone actually posted a link to this excellent p...

2009-04-24T13:23:13.449-04:00

Someone actually posted a link to this excellent post in the comments to my recap of Some Like It Hoth. At the time, I disagreed with you, but the recent clip show has apparently confirmed your speculation. Kudos!

if widmore faked the 815 wreck AND wanted the evid...

2009-04-24T03:53:50.181-04:00

if widmore faked the 815 wreck AND wanted the evidence delivered to him, he is dumb. i do not like dumb bad guys...

Edward, you make some good points but just to clea...

2009-04-23T22:41:06.383-04:00

Edward, you make some good points but just to clear up one little thing Locke met Widmore in 1954, not 1953.

The Others have known since that 1954 meeting that Locke was destined to be their leader but they just didn't know when or how it would come to be. That is why Richard Alpert kept track of him as a child and it is also how Widmore, since his exile after the purge, has been using as a means to find the island. One thing that puzzles me with Widmore is he doesn't seem to make any attempts himself to get back to the island, he pays others to help him find it but doesn't go back himself. He could have gone back on 815 and also the freighter. Makes me think that he knows he can't personally go back to the island because it was Jacob who exiled him, the Others follow Jacob's every command (killing the US soldiers, the purge etc.). If Jacob knows all then he would know that Widmore's actions would lead Locke to the island, so therefore he ordered Widmore be exiled instead of killed. And if Jacob said that Widmore could never return then Ben will do everything in his power to uphold that order. From the Ben flashback in 'Dead is dead' it appears that Widmore wasn't a true believer in Jacob and was more of a tyrant when he was the leader of the Others. Kind of gives some cred to Ben saying that Widmore only wants to exploit the island for his own benefit.

>> So, does this mean that Ben's actions (turni...

2009-04-23T19:26:27.977-04:00

>> So, does this mean that Ben's actions (turning the FDW) to keep Widmore from finding the Island actually allowed him to find it in the first place?

I think it's likely - and not the only case of circular causality on the show. Without Ben's action, Widmore would not have met Locke in 1953 and would not have known that Locke had a link to the Island.

If Widmore planted the fake wreckage it could only be because he knew 815's disappearance was connected with the Island. How would he have known that? Three guesses: (1) he has a spy on the Island who saw the crash, (2) he knew the flight had entered Island space (by getting the coordinates from Ms. Hawking or by his own Lamppost-like device), or (3) he knew someone connected with the Island was on the plane.

Probably not (1); definitely (3); maybe also (2).

The Others knew Locke from 1953 and knew his identity from birth onwards. It only makes sense that Widmore, after his exile, would continue to track Locke as a link to the Island and a possible way to get back himself. If we assume that Abaddon was acting as Widmore's agent when he suggested the walkabout to Locke, we can conclude that Widmore was engineering Locke's fated trip to the Island. Maybe he guessed from Locke's age that it was time to happen; maybe he knew that 815 would pass over Island space. Either way, when Locke's flight disappeared Widmore knew where it had gone. The faked wreckage was to throw off any other parties tracking Locke or the flight.

Felix could have just been reporting to his boss (...

2009-04-23T17:14:58.737-04:00

Felix could have just been reporting to his boss (Widmore), or he could have been a spy, or a defector.... there's just nothing conclusive here, sorry.

I'm personally waiting for DHARMA to resurface and implicate themselves in the fake wreckage. They would need to keep the island secluded while they form or implement a plan to retake it.

So, does this mean that Ben's actions (turning the...

2009-04-23T16:04:09.269-04:00

So, does this mean that Ben's actions (turning the FDW) to keep Widmore from finding the Island actually allowed him to find it in the first place?

The clips show said Widmore did it, so he did it. ...

2009-04-23T14:05:32.816-04:00

The clips show said Widmore did it, so he did it. It's possible Widmore knew 815 might end up on the island and actually began preparing the fake wreckage beforehand.
Here's the scenario: Widmore knew Locke would end up on the Island (from the 1953 meeting) so he has been tracking Locke throughout his life. He decided that if he himself could get Locke on the Island it would help him get a lock on the Island (pun intended). He conferred with Ms. Hawking and determined that Oceanic 815 would pass over the Island in 2004. He had Abaddon befriend Locke and convince him to travel to Australia and he paid off the walk-about tour company to reject Locke so that Locke's only option was to book a return flight on 815. (Sounds like this plan could easily have gone wrong, but Widmore was convinced it would work: he knew Locke *would* get to the Island so he just had to manipulate the *how*.)
When 815 disappeared Widmore knew the plan had worked. Locke was on Island and would soon trigger disruptions that would make the Island reveal itself. Widmore arranged for the fake wreckage to be discovered to throw off any rival Island seekers who might also have been tracking 815. And he watched and waited for the EM blip that would pinpoint the Island.

They did state that on the recap show, but I'm not...

2009-04-23T13:02:42.391-04:00

They did state that on the recap show, but I'm not certain that that's canon. It still doesn't make sense to me that Felix would be delivering this "proof" to Widmore if Widmore had known about it.

Another thing that caught my interest here: Naomi told Charlie et. al. when they found her that the wreckage of flight 815 had been found with no survivors. After seeing this episode, this proves that she already knew that it was staged when she told them this.

Yes, I watched the recap last night and it clearly...

2009-04-23T10:51:43.458-04:00

Yes, I watched the recap last night and it clearly stated that the wreckage was planted by Widmore. Case closed!

I think this has been answered now by the recap sh...

2009-04-23T08:30:59.050-04:00

I think this has been answered now by the recap show. I have yet to see it,but the summary states it verifies Widmore staged the fakery.

You're all missing another vital clue in all this;...

2009-04-22T18:03:35.389-04:00

You're all missing another vital clue in all this; Matthew Abaddon's "there were no survivors of Oceanic 815" 'instruction' to Naomi. This is clearly open open to interpretation, but in my opinion it adds weight to the 'Widmore done it' side of the debate.

I think it could still be argued both ways, and so...

2009-04-21T19:04:15.467-04:00

I think it could still be argued both ways, and some of these comments are really persuasive, but like you, I think the writers meant this to show definitively that Widmore faked the plane crash.

I bet that sometime next season, we get a Widmore flashback and see him finding out about the plane crash, somehow putting two and two together, and ordering a cover-up. That would be an awesome episode.

Ben deffinitely manipulated the whole thing, havin...

2009-04-20T23:09:38.588-04:00

Ben deffinitely manipulated the whole thing, having syid arrested, killling ben to get to jack, the ring with sun, and he deffinitely would have the money to pull it off. I mean they can time travel and ben always says he doesnt know anything when he always does.

The money he could deffinitely get because Miles even tells him he knows he can get him the 3.2 million in short time. Which is also think its cool we find out why he choose that number to not turn ben in.

First off, Jug Head is NOT a nuclear bomb, it is a...

2009-04-20T16:31:04.700-04:00

First off, Jug Head is NOT a nuclear bomb, it is a HYDROGEN bomb. Big difference.
Second, idledandy is right. If Widmore had staged the fake crash in the Sunda Trench, he would not need proof of empty graves and a PO for a plane. Like many watchers, I suspected Widmore at first, but when Tom showed the supposed proof to Micheal, I was convinved that it was Ben and his network of Others who had staged the wreck. After watching Some Like It Hoth, I am even more convinced.

i totally agree about jughead being in the shadow ...

2009-04-20T08:32:32.849-04:00

i totally agree about jughead being in the shadow of the statue. imagine the power someone would have with a nuclear bomb? more importantly does no one think it strange that a company the size and power of the dharma initiative would not try and get back to an island which they know holds so much power and importance? there had to be a set up off island for dharma which the purge couldnt touch. i think the 'shadow of the statue' are new dharma who have been trying all this time to get back to the island to start a 'war' with the hostiles for breaking the truce with the purge.

also another question i hope someone can answer. how did dharma start building all over the place on the island? surely in the initial stages of dharma ariving it would have been easy for the native hostiles to eliminate them like with the US army?

thanks anon! i had totally forgot about the tape o...

2009-04-19T23:43:00.533-04:00

thanks anon! i had totally forgot about the tape of widmore which ben revealed to locke in "the other woman"(s04e06).

however, i still have to question the motivation...

why would felix "bring" anything to widmore if he works for somebody else?

perhaps felix was killed by this other dude who is getting beat up by widmore? he may have already passed the evidence off to tom too which was why he was being beaten instead of just being killed.

felix was widmores victim shown in a video to lock...

2009-04-19T21:37:18.594-04:00

felix was widmores victim shown in a video to locke by ben. felix was probably setting up widmore to make it look like he set up the crash when it was really ben. felix got caught and was about to get shot by widmore. that would make the most sense cause it would tie everything together

The shipping order was in Widmore's name though......

2009-04-19T06:19:57.683-04:00

The shipping order was in Widmore's name though... if Tom took it from Felix - do we really think he then took time to forge it all?

I started watching Lost in January of this year. I...

2009-04-19T02:47:13.128-04:00

I started watching Lost in January of this year. I finished four seasons in three weeks. I just wanna say that I feel really sorry for the people that have been watching this show on a week to week basis since 04. Holy shit. Talk about some dedication. You guys rule. And for those of you that gave up after season three episode four. . I hope you're enjoying Heroes. Losers